Has the DSLR Movement killed the Prosumer camera market?

To add on what Barry has said, if you consider only the "shooters" out there that want it a $2,000 camera package, then yes.
It will be hard to compete with that.

But I don't consider myself among them.
So far, for me, what a camera like the 7D has to offer (both good and bad) makes incredibly compelling case because of the low cost investment.
Let's be honest, the 7D with the limited lens kit goes for less than what I've paid for one 8gig P2 card 3 years ago. That's very compelling.
 
I love my 7D but it fills a very specific need for my production work. I will always own a true video camera for reasons previously described.

It's all about having the right tool for the job... The 7D is to a finishing nailer like the EX1 is to a Framing Nailer ( I just finished my first home remodel project this week ... :laugh:).
 
Nik Manning said:
95%? Seems rather high considering all of the prosumer guys that have traded in there, dvx,A1,hvx,dvx,etc for GH1, 5D,7D, etc.
Click to expand...
People who owned prosumer camcorders are not necessarily "prosumer guys." In other words, they're not necessarily using those camcorders to make a living. They may simply have bought the best equipment that they could afford on a limited budget for their own hobbyist purposes.

Plenty of "prosumer guys" have said here that while the DSLRs provide better results than they ever dreamed compared to their camcorders, they only consider the DSLRs to to be complements/supplements, not replacements.
 
Nik Manning said:
I think the point maybe that the 1D MKIV may address the audio recording issues, monitoring issues with flip put screen, and stabilization issues. And it would more than likely cost less than $5,000. Is that to much to expect for a DSLR camera that would cost 3 times more than the 7D?

I am not saying the 7D is the perfect camera or close but I am saying that the DSLR in the very near future maybe the perfect hybrid for the vast majority of productions.
Click to expand...

DSLRs give a lot for the money spent on them in terms of DOF and basic image quality. However, in my opinion, they aren't anywhere close to a "perfect hybrid", but are a stepping stone. DSLRS are, and always will be, photographic cameras first and foremost. I sincerely doubt we will see DSLR cameras with onboard XLR input and level controls, EVFs, or the capability to actually resolve a real 1080p in a reliable form of compression unless the photographic folks really step up and ask for it en masse. Until then, I expect video cameras will be video cameras which are okay, but not optimal, for shooting stills and still cameras will be still cameras which are okay, but not optimal, for video.

Something like the imagined RED Scarlet I find much closer to perfection - the ability to have a RAW stills camera (though, ironically, probably lacking in some of the stills features), but also a fully fledged video camera which can shoot a real solid 1080p (really, 2.2K or 3K) image, uses reliable compression, and has the ability to have good onboard sound, sound and video monitoring options, additional hot-swappable batteries, media, etc.

I know there is a great deal of negative sentiment, so in that case I'll say this doesn't have to come from RED. Indeed, this is something I think Canon, Panasonic, and Sony are probably considering very hard - especially with the whole Cinema DNG concept. And so when one of these cameras comes around and costs $5,000 or $10,000, I see plenty of people more than willing to pay.

I echo Barry's sentiment - these "forks" are great at being stills cameras, but they won't (and many think don't) beat out the "spoons" that are designed from the ground up to shoot great video. Except for DOF. That benefit I expect to be made moot within two generations as video and digital cinema cameras are released with larger sensors.
 
Last edited:
The RED DSMC is the closest to a DSLR that could kill the prosumer market. But that's because it's designed specifically for professional videography.

The video functions may improve on the camera companies' DSLRs, but they'll probably never be good enough, because the cameras simply aren't designed for serious videography use. For many shooters, the form factor and traditional video-style controls make a world of difference.

When and if the camera companies release true hybrids like what RED has proposed, then they'll no longer be called "DSLRs." It'll be an entirely new market, but one that'll stand beside DSLRs and dedicated camcorders, because most photogs won't need one, nor will most shooters. Only a niche market like ours has use for a hybrid.
 
ydgmdlu said:
People who owned prosumer camcorders are not necessarily "prosumer guys." In other words, they're not necessarily using those camcorders to make a living. They may simply have bought the best equipment that they could afford on a limited budget for their own hobbyist purposes.

Plenty of "prosumer guys" have said here that while the DSLRs provide better results than they ever dreamed compared to their camcorders, they only consider the DSLRs to to be complements/supplements, not replacements.
Click to expand...

This is so very true. A lot of us buy prosumer cameras and end up having less than 50 hours of recording done over the life of the camera or using them to film performances from the bleachers. I still think this is the prosumer market though. That is one reason why the Scarlet/or similar won't sell as many cameras as before because we would have already happily burned are money on DSLR's!

I think the DSLR's are perfect for the Prosumer/Money burning whole in pocket crowd. :)
 
Also, keep in mind that part of the reason why filmmaking and videography equipment is so expensive is because the market is so small. Basic economic theory states that merchants set prices based on demand; they charge the highest price that they can offer for the finite number of goods that they can sell. The ideal price, which is at the point where the supply and demand curves intersect, is called the "market-clearing price."

So even if you might casually call a piece of equipment "overpriced," as long as you're willing to buy it anyway, then it will continue to be offered at that price. Barry has said multiple times that Panasonic will sell more GH1s in the product's lifetime than it will ever sell all of the broadcast division's cameras (which includes the HVX) combined, and it's not because the GH1 is so inexpensive (though amateur photographers won't call it "inexpensive"). It's because the number of buyers in the broadcast division's target market is far smaller.

So when you think about it, RED's pricing is close to miraculous. They're offering fairly state-of-the-art equipment at unprecedentedly low prices, but they've still only had around 7000 customers. And the RED One still hasn't killed the viability of other HD cameras that are far more expensive.

Once the camera companies introduce hybrid cameras that do supercede the functionality of their dedicated prosumer camcorders, then those hybrid cameras will be priced just like the prosumer camcorders. A huge part of the appeal of these DSLRs now is their relative low price.
 
Last edited:
Nik Manning said:
I still think this is the prosumer market though.
Click to expand...
I think that you're making some big assumptions about the "prosumer market." Do you have sales figures to support your claim that a huge portion of prosumer camcorder sales go to casual users?
 
ydgmdlu said:
The RED DSMC is the closest to a DSLR that could kill the prosumer market. But that's because it's designed specifically for professional videography.
Click to expand...
Is it? Last I knew it was designed specifically for digital cinematography, which is a very different market than professional videography. I'm not even sure if the Scarlet can even record in a video format, or if it's still only raw...
 
ydgmdlu said:
The video functions may improve on the camera companies' DSLRs, but they'll probably never be good enough, because the cameras simply aren't designed for serious videography use. For many shooters, the form factor and traditional video-style controls make a world of difference.
Click to expand...

Comments like this and other similar to it throughout this thread (not calling anyone out here) remind me of the discussions I had back in the day with "pro" video guys when the VX-1000/2000 appeared. Of course none of them liked this "little toy". The form factor "standard" then was the big behemouth shoulder-mounted camera. No way would the VX-2000 form factor work - not for pro-video work! Now flash forward and all of the sudden the form factor pioneered by the VX is considered some kind of standard of its own.

In this field the only "standard" is constant evolution.
 
Nathan Troutman said:
Comments like this and other similar to it throughout this thread (not calling anyone out here) remind me of the discussions I had back in the day with "pro" video guys when the VX-1000/2000 appeared. Of course none of them liked this "little toy". The form factor "standard" then was the big behemouth shoulder-mounted camera. No way would the VX-2000 form factor work - not for pro-video work! Now flash forward and all of the sudden the form factor pioneered by the VX is considered some kind of standard of its own.

In this field the only "standard" is constant evolution.
Click to expand...

Cheers Nathan! Now go grab your iPod and make a film.:happy:
 
Nathan Troutman said:
Comments like this and other similar to it throughout this thread (not calling anyone out here) remind me of the discussions I had back in the day with "pro" video guys when the VX-1000/2000 appeared. Of course none of them liked this "little toy". The form factor "standard" then was the big behemouth shoulder-mounted camera. No way would the VX-2000 form factor work - not for pro-video work! Now flash forward and all of the sudden the form factor pioneered by the VX is considered some kind of standard of its own.

In this field the only "standard" is constant evolution.
Click to expand...
But "handycams" are still regularly dismissed by the pros, and they haven't killed the viability or the desirability of the bigger shoulder-mount cameras with interchangeable lenses.

The fact is that many shooters simply don't find DSLRs to be ergonomic for serious videography. It's like why videographers will swear by electronic viewfinders, but still photographers will consider EVFs in place of optical viewfinders to be almost unacceptable. Certainly designs are simply optimal for their intended tasks and won't be accepted as new standards for other tasks.

What you are are saying is known as "affirming the consequent."
 
Barry_Green said:
Is it? Last I knew it was designed specifically for digital cinematography, which is a very different market than professional videography. I'm not even sure if the Scarlet can even record in a video format, or if it's still only raw...
Click to expand...
I agree with you, and it only underlines my implicit point. There are many reasons why hybrid cameras won't kill the professional videography market. Hybrid cameras are better-suited to digital cinematography as well.

What I was saying though was that the DSMC is the only announced camera system that deliberately incorporates many of the features demanded by videographers, unlike the DSLRs.
 
Nathan Troutman said:
Comments like this and other similar to it throughout this thread (not calling anyone out here) remind me of the discussions I had back in the day with "pro" video guys when the VX-1000/2000 appeared. Of course none of them liked this "little toy". The form factor "standard" then was the big behemouth shoulder-mounted camera. No way would the VX-2000 form factor work - not for pro-video work! Now flash forward and all of the sudden the form factor pioneered by the VX is considered some kind of standard of its own.

In this field the only "standard" is constant evolution.
Click to expand...

I agree Nathan. I saw this the other day and thought "things sure are changing quickly." It's a little silly, really - who would want to record to 3 CF cards and an SSD at the same time? Still, I guess the fact that you could is nice...



I do wonder, however, at what point smaller form factors will become more of a liability for professional or even prosumer video production.

Just saw this: http://picasaweb.google.com/yolklab/YOLKY2#5383811510613422114
 
Last edited:
So far it has exceeded my expectations. I expected to get it and then like it, but be like: "But it's a little wonky here or there..." but so far it's been very solid and reliable.

Properly lit, the images are spectacular.

Even not properly lit, I can get perfectly fine exposure in the subway stations and trains with nothing but practicals. So it looks like it will live up to its promise of being a perfect guerrilla cam, good cam to put on the hood of a car, get into tight spaces, etc.

I will likely shoot all of my shorts from now on on this or something similar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top