Has the DSLR Hybrid craze effectively killed the desire for a Red Scarlet camera?

[Ben_B]

I've shot documentary interviews on the DVX and even stopping to change tapes every hour was intrusive...especially when the person is opening up emotionally...it can really kill things off. It can be quite challenging to get some people to talk about things that are difficult, and capturing all of that is very important. I don't see how anyone could do interviews for documentary at least (ENG might be another matter) with a camera that shuts off every 12 minutes and could overheat.

 

[Barry_Green]

Don't the P2 files get broken up into pieces anyway because of the FAT32 formatting? Surely double punching the record button on a camera would achieve almost the same thing.

No, because on the DSLR you will lose frames between recordings, and continuous operation of the Canons may cause image degradation due to overheating. Whereas with P2 or AVCCAM, they're designed to seamlessly stitch the files together without losing any frames.

Now, if you're not concerned about maintaining seamless flow from one file to the next, then yes you can of course stop and start again. Only real concern there would be if you encounter overheating.

 

[Blaine]

I've shot documentary interviews on the DVX and even stopping to change tapes every hour was intrusive...especially when the person is opening up emotionally...it can really kill things off. It can be quite challenging to get some people to talk about things that are difficult, and capturing all of that is very important. I don't see how anyone could do interviews for documentary at least (ENG might be another matter) with a camera that shuts off every 12 minutes and could overheat.

This sounds like a time to use something like DV Monitor Pro or OnLocation. I don't know much about OnLocation but DV Monitor Pro has no limit on record time other than space available on the hard drive. I've recorded continuous for over three hours on it. (Plus no wear and tear on the head since you're not recording to tape.)

 

[Max Smith]

People, please -- if someone wants/needs long takes, don't take it upon yourself to decree that "nobody needs that". If the DSLR is all about empowering new people and new creativity, then how do you know what any individual artist needs? If someone wants long running times, then they want long running times -- and that has to be okay with you. If the Canon can't do it, then the Canon can't do it -- and that has to be okay with you. Maybe he wants to shoot films AND do documentaries AND do events. Maybe he wants to make single-take films like "Russian Ark" and "Timecode".

Some of us want or need long recording times. Some of us want or need autofocus. Some of us want or need to be able to zoom during a shot. Some of us want or need lots of things. You can't tell someone that they don't need what they do. You can say "well, in my style of shooting I've never needed it" but that's pretty much where that ends. The whole idea of "Timecode" came about specifically because Figgis was intrigued by the idea of being able to do an entire film without any cuts. I doubt many here would be comfortable telling Mike Figgis "you don't actually need that."

I agree that there are times when exceptionally long clips might be needed. And to get that you will need the proper tool for the job, which by the way certianly isn't a film camera.

I also agree, as a matter of fact, that the DSLR craze has not killed the desire for the Scarlet. I love me my little T2i but I'll buy a Scarlet the second it comes out.

I do however, take expection to specific quote like:

"When a DSLR can shoot at Scarlet caliber res and sustain a clip of longer than 20 minutes, THEN it will kill desire for Scarlet.
Phrased even better. Scarlet is supposed to be the bridge between DSLR's that can only shoot 12 minute clips and full blown full sensor cameras of any make.

Notice I make a big deal of the clip length. That's because most serious real world productions need the flexibility of longer shots."

Unless you were to define 'serious real world productions' specifically as documentaries and maybe weddings (been to a few damn long wedding ceremonies), which would be a somewhat dubious definition, then it's just not true.

Again, the Scarlet vs. DSLR evolution is a mildy interesting debate, but only when we keep our facts straight. Otherwise it just deteriorates into a bunch of fantasyland what ifs.

 

[Ian-T]

Why do people keep making the 12 minute limit out to be a problem? I guess if you are the sole interviewer and camera operator then it could be a task but even then I’m sure there are ways around it (even with one camera). Use a remote. Time your shots. Simply press “restart.” I don’t do that type of work but I can’t imagine me being the only interviewer and not using a monitor during the whole interview. Keep your eyes on the monitor especially using the EOS Utility and you’ll be in good shape. To restart only takes a second. As long as you are using separate audio then you can easily make cuts around those instances where you had to restart. I mean…even if you had a camera that could record for 2 hours straight you’re not going to keep the camera trained on the individual for the whole show are you? That would be hard to watch.

 

[Blaine]

I mean…even if you had a camera that could record for 2 hours straight you’re not going to keep the camera trained on the individual for the whole show are you? That would be hard to watch.

That's what pickup shots are for.

Why do people keep making the 12 minute limit out to be a problem? I guess if you are the sole interviewer and camera operator then it could be a task but even then I’m sure there are ways around it (even with one camera). Use a remote. Time your shots. Simply press “restart.”

I think the problem here would be the slight delay in the recording caused by hitting restart. It may more may not be a problem depending on when it happened. I don't think I'd like to take that chance. Some wouldn't mind and in that case a dslr might be fine for them. For others, it wouldn't.


(Not directed at Ian-T's quote)
To make a blanket statement about what any type of camera can or can't be used for just seems a bit short-sighted. Any camera can be used for anything as long as one is willing to put up with the limitations. Every camera has some kind of limitation and to act like it's perfect for every application flies in the face of common sense.

 

[Ian-T]

That's what pickup shots are for.

Ok. Then to me the most important part of the interview is the audio. Keep that consistent and all should be well.

 

[Chris Santucci]

Now, if you're not concerned about maintaining seamless flow from one file to the next, then yes you can of course stop and start again. Only real concern there would be if you encounter overheating.

Yeah that's what I mean - you could *almost* shoot continuously that way, barring the overheating. In an interview situation nobody talks for 12 minutes straight without a pause.

.

 

[Razz16mm]

Hi guys. I am new to DVX user, but an old pro shooter (60) turned amateur. I mostly just shoot for fun these days. Mostly shot 16mm film for video during the 70's and early 80's until 3/4 U-matic and Betacam eventually killed the market for the B to B and industrial communications productions I mostly shot. I'm a regular at Scarletuser and Reduser and have been patiently waiting to make the jump to an HD/digital cinema production camera from my current GL2 since Scarlet was first announced. At the time I was considering the Canon or Panny prosumer level HD cameras, but quite frankly was not all that enthused about any of them and decent 2/3" HD cameras were out of reach.

I have often done locked off master shot documentation of staged events where the camera will be running continuously through an entire set or act. Sometimes more than an hour. There are many other situations I have encountered in general documetary work where long continous shooting times are common. Sometimes it has required two cameras to get continous coverage.

The 16mm/2/3" sized format is still my all around favorite general purpose motion production format. It is currently by far the most popular broadcast production format in the world and needs no justification for its existence vis-a-vis anything 35mm. It stands on its own merits and has for nearly 100 years.

None of the video camera systems I have shot with have ever matched the overall aesthetic qualities , resolution, sensitivity, dynamic range of well shot 16mm film. Scarlet is the very first digital camera that has the potential to equal or better the image quality and production flexibility of my old Bolex. I have waited for 30 years for such an affordable high quality production camera, so another few months or a year even is of little consequence.
The capability to shoot high frame rate motion raw at well beyond HD resolution and with near film like dynamic range and sensitivity is specifically what attracts me to Scarlet.

The HDSLR's have certainly created a niche market all their own, but they cannot be considered seriously as a practical general purpose motion production camera. They are primarily still cameras with consumer video features added. I have not been very impressed with the video quality these cameras produce. David Mullen ASC said it best, they shoot HDV quality video with 35mm DOF. They have their niche, but it is a very narrow one. They are very limited and limiting in the production styles that they can produce acceptable footage for.

 

[Ian-T]

..., they shoot HDV quality video with 35mm DOF. They have their niche, but it is a very narrow one. They are very limited and limiting in the production styles that they can produce acceptable footage for.

I don't get it though...what camera in this price range does not have its own set of limitations? I think one can keep weighing these cams (or any cam) againts a Scarlet if they want...but the fact is these cams are available now. Folks are putting them to use now. I'm sure the Scarlet will be wonderful when it finally materializes to the general public but for right now its a pipe dream for a lot of us. And by the time it comes out...who knows...these DSLRs could be much better the second time around.

Coming from an HDV camera myself I don't take Mr. Mullen's comment as being a negative (even if he meant it that way...not sure). I really don't look at it as a bad thing. HDV cameras have been used for many kinds of productions (even the big screen). It's highly compressed...but still good enough for a lot of different applications.

 

[Barry_Green]

Yeah that's what I mean - you could *almost* shoot continuously that way, barring the overheating. In an interview situation nobody talks for 12 minutes straight without a pause.

Hah! Clearly, sir, you have never attended one of my seminars!

Rob Meyers once timed me; it took me 15 minutes (FIFTEEN MINUTES) to answer one question!

 

[Barry_Green]

I don't get it though...what camera in this price range does not have its own set of limitations?

Every product has limitations, whether in performance, or cost, or usability. The trick is to find the one where the limitations don't limit you -- they might be limiting in some circumstances, but not in the purpose you're putting it to.

Coming from an HDV camera myself I don't take Mr. Mullen's comment as being a negative (even if he meant it that way...not sure).

Why does it have to be "meant" to be negative? It's a simple observation. The quality of compression format coming off the HDSLR is about the same as HDV. So that could be a positive or a negative, depending on your own feelings about the HDV format, but I wouldn't go attributing any motivation to David's statement other than to relay information.

 

[Erik Olson]

A few others have said it, but I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the talent just starting to open up emotionally when we've had a tape change imminent. Depending on the situation, even calling out a X-minute warning can be a deal killer, let alone stopping to load another tape.

Nothing kills the momentum of an interview like that tape break does. For that reason, among many others, I'm a proponent of capturing interviews on media that spans without breaks - like P2.

I cannot imagine shooting anything with cameras that force you to pause to restart recording. To have cameras overheating within minutes of rolling is completely unacceptable in a professional environment, where hundreds of dollars (or more) are attached to each and every minute of the production day.

 

[Razz16mm]

I don't get it though...what camera in this price range does not have its own set of limitations? I think one can keep weighing these cams (or any cam) againts a Scarlet if they want...but the fact is these cams are available now. Folks are putting them to use now. I'm sure the Scarlet will be wonderful when it finally materializes to the general public but for right now its a pipe dream for a lot of us. And by the time it comes out...who knows...these DSLRs could be much better the second time around.

Coming from an HDV camera myself I don't take Mr. Mullen's comment as being a negative (even if he meant it that way...not sure). I really don't look at it as a bad thing. HDV cameras have been used for many kinds of productions (even the big screen). It's highly compressed...but still good enough for a lot of different applications.

I think the HDV cams and the DSLR's do give a lot of bang for the buck. The T2i is certainly a big step up from a handicam. But short of changing form factor and losing the mirror reflex system in favor of a good EVF, I don't think the DSLR's will ever make practical production cameras. Large sensor camcorders will no doubt emerge that address many of the issues. The Panasonic AP100 4/3 camera is certainly a step in the right direction, and I confess to really liking the potential of 4/3 as a practical motion format that still uses relatively compact optics. I thought when the GH1 came out that Panny would be the first to make a real camcorder around the m4/3 format.

Personally I am more interested in a serious 16mm film camera replacement, not just another video camera. Scarlet is certainly not going to be a cheap solution. My budget plan for Scarlet Cinema with a decent selection of premium used 16mm glass is pushing north of $10k at this point. I admit to being seriously tempted by the T2i as an interim solution , but the budget just won't allow it. $800 is the price range for a good used matte box for example.

 

[Postmaster]

One thing, nobody here mentioned is acquisition rules for broadcast.

Here in Germany the new rules for national and private TV are just released.

Thou the rules of the private stations are a bit more loose, they rule out DSLRs for premium and mainstream content.
They are only allowed for special situations like in a war or disaster area.

BTW: they also rule out everything less than 4:2:2 - 1/2 inch sensor - certified HD glass - full format - Intraframe or MPEG2/4 (WTF?).
Thou DVCproHD and HDCAM are allowed for mainstream content to a certain degree.

For premium content, that leaves you with RED, Sony SRW-9000, Arri Alexa and a few other high $$$ cameras.

The democratization of production equipment was just buried. R.I.P.

Looks like if you want to sell to European stations you better get a RED or wait for the Scarlet (sic) instead of a DSLR.

Frank

 

[Ian-T]

Personally I am more interested in a serious 16mm film camera replacement, not just another video camera. Scarlet is certainly not going to be a cheap solution. My budget plan for Scarlet Cinema with a decent selection of premium used 16mm glass is pushing north of $10k at this point. I admit to being seriously tempted by the T2i as an interim solution , but the budget just won't allow it. $800 is the price range for a good used matte box for example.

Yeah I know what you mean. It will still be expensive. That's what makes these DSLRs more attractive for me. I'm sure though by second generation we'll get better options. But I hope the price does not jump up too much.

 

[morgan_moore]

Nothing kills the momentum of an interview like that tape break does. For that reason, among many others, I'm a proponent of capturing interviews on media that spans without breaks - like P2.

What about having two DSLR cameras - even on the same sticks

Then you roll over the gap

mixed with external sound I would be suprised to miss anything

something I lashed up..

contiuous rolling 16-200mm 2.8 DSLR

S

 

[Erik Olson]

Well, that's one way to do it. When we first started shooting P2, I had regular conversations with producers regarding the 4GB cards, which were the only thing available when the HVX200 was introduced.

We all felt shackled at 10 minutes a card. With three cards and a P2Store, you could fake your way through almost any situation - as long as the P2Store wasn't moved. At all. But, coming from the world of 400' loads, we were conditioned to magazine changes.

At least the camera wasn't shutting down due to temperature.

The more I read, the more I think the GH1 is the camera we'll be going with.

 

[David G. Smith]

One thing, nobody here mentioned is acquisition rules for broadcast.

Here in Germany the new rules for national and private TV are just released.

Thou the rules of the private stations are a bit more loose, they rule out DSLRs for premium and mainstream content.
They are only allowed for special situations like in a war or disaster area.

BTW: they also rule out everything less than 4:2:2 - 1/2 inch sensor - certified HD glass - full format - Intraframe or MPEG2/4 (WTF?).
Thou DVCproHD and HDCAM are allowed for mainstream content to a certain degree.

For premium content, that leaves you with RED, Sony SRW-9000, Arri Alexa and a few other high $$$ cameras.

The democratization of production equipment was just buried. R.I.P.

Looks like if you want to sell to European stations you better get a RED or wait for the Scarlet (sic) instead of a DSLR.

Frank

Is that for terrestrial digital broadcast only or for cable and satellite channels also.

 

[Postmaster]

It´s for everything, terrestrial, cable and satellite.

Frank