GH2 Handling GH2's 24p for broadcast

N

noam

Well-known member
Hey Guys,

I've been shooting some regularly scheduled supplementary content for a broadcaster lately, and initially was shooting and delivering my content in 24p to them. My only deliverable would be a prores HQ quicktime file and the broadcaster would ingest that into their system for air. After catching some of the material on tv, I noticed that the GH2's 24p judder was exceptionally noticeable when broadcast. Much more so that when run to a broadcast monitor from my macpro/kona card. I will be speaking to the tape room at the facility to see what their workflow is with my file to find out if there is a conversion issue, but in the mean time, I thought I would ask the question to other GH2 users of how to best deliver/convert footage for broadcast. Assuming you want to shoot 24p and your footage will be broadcast at standard 60i, what would you do on your end to ensure retaining the maximum quality in conversion and what would your workflow be? Other than using teranex (I don't have one), what would you suggest? Converting via compressor to 59.94 and delivering them an interlaced file? If nothing else, for these particular segments I may have to bite the bullet and shoot 60i - yuck.
 
Any conversion I need to do for editing or deliverables goes through Sorenson Squeeze. I'm on version 7 but they're up to version 8 now. I've done 24p to 60i conversions of HPX500, HMC150 and JVC HD700 footage and been pleased with the results. Everything I've been forced to convert has been high quality. But the full Squeeze package is on the pricey side. If you've got enough work coming in from your broadcast clients it might be worth the investment.
 
When I send 24p for broadcast I do the conversion to 29.97 interlaced using jes deinterlacer. It has an option to add pull down which properly coverts 24p to 29.97 (60i is the same thing)
Don't let those idiots convert it for you!
If I were you I would seriously consider shooting in 30 to avoid the whole problem, but that comes at an aesthetic price.
 
Same as above.

First, I wouldn't let them do the conversion. If you want to shoot 24P do the conversion yourself before you deliver it.

In a world where every minute I spend in post production is money out of my pocket, I have started shooting commercials in 29.97 instead of 23.976. Visually, it's just not THAT different. In Deep DOF video camera world it is one thing you can do to make things look more "filmic" but if shooting on a DSLR which inherently looks more like cinema I think it becomes less important.
 
I've found that TV stations often can't handle and don't want 1080P, only 1080i. Most of their Avid or Final Cut timelines are setup for 1080i at 59.94 fields/sec. You would never see a 1080P timeline in a station unless they had an in-house production unit producing TV spots or sophisticated features. If you (or the TV station) places a 1080P file on a 1080i timeline, you will get a variation of 1080i that will play, but it won't have proper 3-2 pulldown and you will notice the video being slightly jerky.

We use RED's, 5D's, AF100's and hacked GH2's. We finish all our spots to 1080P master files. We then use After Effects to create a ProResHQ 1080i version with perfect 3-2 pull down. This interlaced version is then used within Compressor to create the various H.264 and MPEG2 versions that specific stations need. Unless you're doing static, fast horizontal pans, the results should have the same cadence as transferred motion picture film. (NOTE for stations requesting 720P files, we use the 1080P/24 master file via Compressor, not the 1080i file.) Hope this helps... Glenn
 
I concure... I really hate 60i and I hate to shoot in it and I don't do it for anything that's for me or my clients... EXCEPT.. when it's going to broadcast. I just keep it simple and shoot in 60i and deliver it as such... I've never understood why they want it, but they all do... and a lot of them used to request that I went out and rent a Sony HDV camera and that's just the friggin pits... but when the network demands things... it's easier to sail along than paddle up stream...

I did just recently post a whole show that was shot in 24p and I just conformed it to 60i and was done with it..... I still don't know why they shot it in 24p, but ohh well.. and it ended up looking pretty good.
 
Thank you TIM, GONZO, and GLEN!

This is the kind of specific advice that really helps us part-timers and "new to the field" types.

Next beer's on me!
 
DPStewart said:
Thank you TIM, GONZO, and GLEN!

This is the kind of specific advice that really helps us part-timers and "new to the field" types.

Next beer's on me!
Click to expand...

I'm pretty new myself, but it didn't take long to figure out that it doesn't look different enough (29.97) to be worth worrying semi-fast action will wind up being a pull down nightmare.
 
Glenn Przyborski said:
I've found that TV stations often can't handle and don't want 1080P, only 1080i. Most of their Avid or Final Cut timelines are setup for 1080i at 59.94 fields/sec. You would never see a 1080P timeline in a station unless they had an in-house production unit producing TV spots or sophisticated features. If you (or the TV station) places a 1080P file on a 1080i timeline, you will get a variation of 1080i that will play, but it won't have proper 3-2 pulldown and you will notice the video being slightly jerky.

We use RED's, 5D's, AF100's and hacked GH2's. We finish all our spots to 1080P master files. We then use After Effects to create a ProResHQ 1080i version with perfect 3-2 pull down. This interlaced version is then used within Compressor to create the various H.264 and MPEG2 versions that specific stations need. Unless you're doing static, fast horizontal pans, the results should have the same cadence as transferred motion picture film. (NOTE for stations requesting 720P files, we use the 1080P/24 master file via Compressor, not the 1080i file.) Hope this helps... Glenn
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What he said. I'm on the PC side with Avid Media Composer so I don't use Compressor. Sorenson has pull down options which work great. But yeah, you could always shoot 60. Broadcast uses a lot of 60i because there are so many variables with footage going from source to network to affiliates and all sorts of places in between. Playback and editing systems range from low end dinosaurs to the latest high end servers. Whether it's HD or SD the legacy of 60i simply causes fewer headaches in a lot of cases. And sometimes engineers are very reluctant to change. No insult engineers, I've learned a lot from the ones I know over the years.
 
The difference in motion quality between 29.97 and and 23.976 is minor. I personally dislike the 3:2 pull down cadence of 24 to 30 conversions. It is not like film and I find it annoying. I used to shoot 16mm for video at 30fps to avoid the pull down cadence.
 
Not to derail this thread but Razz, don't you think the pulldown cadence has subliminal qualities that makes watchers think...'film'? For me, it's more cinematic, but I've been watching movies with pulldown for a long time so maybe I'm just used to it.
Aren't there're lots of TV shows shot in 24P that have pulldown added for broadcast? I remember seeing a show on TV with that frame rate up conversion 'feature' that comes standard on new TVs these days and it looked awful!
 
I have my very first commercial shoot for a friend to be broadcasted locally and have no clue what I need to do. I'm using driftwood's orion v4b and was wondering about the workflow and steps to convert 24p footage correctly for it to air properly. I'm guessing i need to use a 3:2 pulldown for it to be (30p)? but i dont know how convert or what i need to do first, as im using Premiere CS5/AE. I'd rather do the conversion myself than giving someone the files to convert as they might not do it correctly. Thanks for any help.​
 
imo, the only reason 30p is an option on the camera is so that you can use it to shoot for broadcast! seriously, if you're not making a film that will also be broadcast, save yourself the time and trouble and capture in the same format/framerate that you intend to deliver.
 
averan said:
imo, the only reason 30p is an option on the camera is so that you can use it to shoot for broadcast! seriously, if you're not making a film that will also be broadcast, save yourself the time and trouble and capture in the same format/framerate that you intend to deliver.
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I got my answer over at personal view, thanks though. Already knowing its easier that way, maybe the paying client likes the 24p look for preference? and i need to know how to convert so it meets broadcast specs so I asked for help. I'd rather do the conversion myself and have it ready to air than to leave it up to the station, like tons of people have stated. And what if i did make a film for broadcast, would still need to know how to convert ya? or atleast would be helpful to know how to.

seriously, no one can ever learn too much in this world. rather be in the knowing and how-to than scrambling and stressing.
 
yes, of course. all valid points. but as others who have also been through this same process as you, we've concluded it's easier/better to capture what you intend to deliver. and if you can't, then keep control over any conversions yourself and only deliver a true 'final' product that is ready to air.

in my experience, most clients don't know jack, but think they do. the key is in managing expectations. that's another way of saying that you should educate your client during the initial stages of the project such that they naturally come to the right conclusion without you having to force it or be the bad guy who says 'no' to their often unnecessary desires and expectations.
 
averan said:
in my experience, most clients don't know jack, but think they do. The key is in managing expectations. That's another way of saying that you should educate your client during the initial stages of the project such that they naturally come to the right conclusion without you having to force it or be the bad guy who says 'no' to their often unnecessary desires and expectations.
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this.
 
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