H4N + NTG-3 + ..? What would you pick for narrative filmmaking?

I

Iudex

Well-known member
Hey guys, I currently have a NTG-3, I've been using it a little bit, not really had the chance to become an expert and know all about it. I recently found myself at trouble when shooting at an office because I was getting a lot of reverb. Acceptable to the client, but not great quality. I'm preproducing a feature film right now and I would like to get another mic that will help me when the NTG-3 cannot. In most situations this just means a good mic for interiors, right? Is the Oktava MK-012 a correct choice? Will the sound quality be on par with the NTG-3?

On the other hand, I actually don't already have the H4N - but from what I read I guess this is my choice, I have a T2i. I read on this forum that the H4N and the NTG-3 work ok toguether, this is correct right?

I'm only worried about the phantom powering issue, will my batteries run dry very fast when shooting exteriors? I read some guy said there isn't much of a difference when shooting stamina mode in the H4N, because the recorder is never actually getting 24bit sound. And you get two different levels channels. What do you think of this?
 
A great mic for interiors is the AT4053b

For narritive film work you may want to step up your recorder to an Edirol R-44. You can even get one modded for about the same price, and have extremely clean sound.

Oace Bros R-44 with Concert mod: http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OBA&Category_Code=EDIR44-Concert

R-44 from B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...4_R_44_Solid_State_Four_Channel_Portable.html

AT4053b Hypercardioid mic: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/642499-REG/Audio_Technica_AT4053B.html
 
Thank you very much for your suggestions Chad (by the way, I still want to direct dressed up as a Gorilla one day).

The Edirol looks very sweet... but I'm kind of worried for the price. Will it really make a difference for me? Because it costs 3 times more than the H4N!

The same thing happens with the AT, is double the price of the Oktava.
 
The short answer is a resounding YES! It will make a difference to you.

Long answer.

People are using the H4N, sure, but it's not the cleanest sounding unit, and it's prone to distortion if overloaded with a loud source. I have recorded with it in controlled situations with a nice mic and the levels way below clipping, yet I was getting distortion here and there. It only records in stereo if you have one mic plugged in, so you will have a stereo file (or many stereo files) with one channel blank, and most likely the "blank" track will have odd noise if you're using Phantom. So you'll have to use an audio editor to copy the channel with the signal on it and make a new mono file. Most things on it are menu driven. The limiter is not so hot. It doesn't take professional "Line Level" so you can't really feed it with a quality mixer like the MixPre, which you should be using anyway for better sound and limiters etc..

You said you were making narrative film. If so, you should have some decent money budgeted for the audio, as audio is the most important element of a film. Cheap out on audio and your film sounds amature right off the bat. No ammount of Magic Bullet Looks will save lame location audio!! Now, I suggest you use a mixer always. BUT if you can't buy a mixer yet, you can still get decent audio with the R-44, especially with the Oade Brothers mod (they have 2 to choose from). The mod really makes a difference in those instances where the dialogue is quiet for whatever reason, and you need to boost the level in post. THAT'S where you find you have screwed yourself with too much noise. With a quiet recorder you have that much more room when you need it. And trust me, it's cheaper to buy something good once, than to buy something so so and have to re-shoot an expensive scene, and then eventually buy a better recorder after you've learned your lesson.

I''m working on a feature length narrative called "Flea" and I am the post mixer, and audio consultant. It's shot on two T2i cameras, with an NTG-3 for out doors, AT4053b for indoors, Rode Blimp, R-44 with a Sound Devices MixPre in front of it and various extras. (I have a production wish list I researched and typed up to be the most bang for your buck on an indie budget). The DP wanted to use his H4N of course because he has read about it going with T2i cameras... I talked them out of it and the film sounds great. Yes there is better gear, but my line up sounds pretty sweet and isn't crazy expensive.

Hey do whatever you want, but believe me you will never regret getting good gear. Beg borrow or steal if need be, and remember that a few grand on audio is child's play in the big picture. And as for the echo: Control your set! Get that mic up close within 18" to the mouth. Put moving blankets from YouHaul or Costco on the ground. Re-frame your shot if need be, or choose a different location. No mic prevents echo, no plug-in can effectively remove it (though I just saw one for 600.00 that says it does) and a shotgun is not the best choice in a reflective area. Oktivas are OK, unless you are using a boom and the handling noise will screw you. I spent many hours removing handling noise from a ME66 using Izotope RX, and I wanted to kill the boom op. The Oktiva's are really susceptible. And the AT4053b sounds better too.

Don't take my word on these items. Google them all until your eyes bleed. See what users are saying. And remember that every compromise you make increases the SUCK factor exponentially, especially when it get's in front of a real audience.

Cheers
 
Thank you for your long answer Chad, is difficult for me to make a decision because I'm not an audio dude, I'm a video dude! I was wondering, as we both own an EX1... how would you compare the sound I get with it and my NTG-3 to the H4N/R-44? For me to have some kind of reference... for example, recording a commercial, I had some distortion with a kind of "oscillating" voice a woman had. She talked low and then turned the volume up really quickly. This will happen with the H4N but now with the R-44?

I've been googling a lot and it's obvious the R-44 is in "another league"... but it's still a little bit pricey for me. Is there a valuable middlepoint? Although it actually looks like the R-44 is the middlepoint between H4N and more expensive devices/combos with mixers.

THANK YOU!
 
If you use the H4n with phantom powe then your batteries will be dead with in 1 to 2 hours. That is Alkaline or ni-cad. I don't know how fast lithium batteries will last.
 
Ivan if you have an EX1, the audio on that is really really good. I often go straight in to the EX1. It's definitely better than the H4N. Just keep the audio level between 5-6 and use the Trim (menu driven setting) to adjust for whatever. I use it at -41db or the next one lower for most stuff.

Here's a good thread on EX1 audio. The initial post came before the firmware update that made the EX1 audio even better, so read near the end for updates.

http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=132249

I don't know what you mean with the woman who had the oscillating voice. Did someone turn up the recording level while she was talking? Don't do that! Whatever recorder you use have the actor speak as loud as they are going to get then set the levels based on that. If you have a person mixing the audio for you they can ride levels ONLY of they have a mixer. Do not change the recording levels during recording. That will cause the noise floor to fluctuate and it's not good. And a Mixer is great even for the EX1. Once you've calibrated something like the MixPre to the camera, it's virtually unclipable.
 
Chad I'm actually trying to sell the EX1 to get DSLR gear :) I have a list of to-buy stuff if a buyer comes by and I make the change. I was just trying to compare to something. Oh well, bad for me, I was hoping for the EX1 to be similar to the H4N or less (to get a good change when buying something better than the H4N).

Nobody touched anything, oscillating I mean variable loudness, no flat voice... like for example, some parts of some words she said louder.
 
Dude Keep your EX1 and just save for a T2i! The EX1 will do a much better job on an indi film. Don't let the shallow DOF trend steal your awesome rig? Much beter image quality with the EX1.

Anyway, if a person speaking is fluctuating their volume too much you can either adjust the levels by hand, or use a compressor plug-in to smooth out the volume levels.
 
Iudex said:
... For me to have some kind of reference... for example, recording a commercial, I had some distortion with a kind of "oscillating" voice a woman had. She talked low and then turned the volume up really quickly. This will happen with the H4N but now with the R-44?

...!
Click to expand...

This is a problem with direction rather than audio hardware. Giving the talent feedback on their delivery so it's at the proper levels and inflection, etc, is part of the director's job. If the actor mumbles or has levels that vary too much, discuss it with her and call for another take.
 
Thank you for the tip Steve!

Chad: I'm actually on the borderline, one day I wake up and I decide to put it on our ebay, but at night I decide not to. That decision stays until the next morning but at night I decide to sell it :D ...

So I settled for selling it for a not-low price and in the meantime keep using it. In the end I think I'm going to just keep it.

Anyway the question is still a go in regards to what other mike to use in conjunction with the NTG-3, something that will cover me when the NTG-3 won't. Is this only on difficult interiors? Is the AT4053b a solid partner or anybody thinks there might be a better option?
 
Oh there are better mics, but I think the AT4053b is the most bang for your buck. There is also the AKG CK93 for a little cheaper. It also has interchangeable caps you can buy (like the AT) but with the AKG the other caps aren't so hot. With the AT all the caps are great, so for 200.00 for a new cap, it's like getting a whole new mic. See I just saved you 300.00! If you want to go really cheap you can get the rode NT3. It's b bit bright and heavy too. Here's a video...

 
Thank you Chad that video is great for me! I can actually listen to the brightness thing you mention, is that something... bad? The AT sounds kind of muffled to me in comparison to the Rodes... as I already have a NTG-3... shouldn't I be getting a NT3? The both sound "bright" to me (if I got that right) and they would match toguether very nicely, is this correct?

I'm only worried about the NT3 not being Hyper... isn't this potentionally inconvinient, wouldn't I be getting a lot of extra stuff? Although on the other hand, it should be better for single-boom-many-subjects recordings, right?
 
The NT3 is a cardioid, which is still directional, just not as directional as a hyper. If it were an Omni, then that would be more of a problem. As far as the brightness goes, it could sound thin on a woman's voice. With the AT4053b, you get more of a full sound, and you have more to work with. You can always EQ it a little to suit whatever voice. These tests were done with no EQ or effects. Brightness can seem nice at first listen, but it tends to grade on the ears after a while. Ty Ford has said to me that he likes the NTG-2 sound better than the NTG-3 because it's more natural sounding. I prefer the NTG-3 as a shotgun, but I prefer the AT4053b to the NT3 as an indoor mic. Also the NT3 is heavy and fat. One cool thing about the NT3 is that it runs on a 9v battery if you don't want to burn batteries supplying phantom power. It comes down to your needs. I have used both and gotten good results from both.
 
I forgot to mention Ivan, about the NT3 and the NTG-3 "matching" I wouldn't say they match. The NT3 sounds more thin than the NTG-3, and really you won't need to match them because one will be outside and one will be inside, so the environments will be totally different. I think you capture more of the voice with the AT4053b, which will give the post audio engineer more to work with.

I think others should chime in on bright mics vs. full sounding mics.
 
Thanks for everything Chad!

Guys, I have someone going over to the US soon. Anybody has another opinion based on my needs? Or maybe a "go for it"? I'm going for the AT4053b as I want a compliment for my NTG-3 when shooting indoors.
 
Hehe thanks Chad...

But this is weird... I mean, the microphone type I want advice for is very common, right? Nobody said anything except you...

Maybe everybody agrees with you!
 
I think everyone knows that there are better mics, but they are more expensive, and the regulars around here have been suggesting the same mics for various budgets over and over. For decent low-mid level hyper mics you have the Oktiva, the AKG CK93, and the AT4053b - respectively going up in price, value, and quality. We all know there is most likely no other mics at those prices that sound as good as those do. So it's just a matter of one of us repeating this to the next person (you) to come along. It basically comes down to your budget, and the type of mic you need for a job. For video it's mostly about Shotguns and Hypers and Lavs. Get the best you can afford then stop thinking about it, because it's time to shoot some magic!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top