H265 or ProRes ?

J

JeffD7K

Active member
Next year I'm going to be doing a 4-6 week documentary on landscapes/animals in the Amercian west. I don't see any use but for you tube and perhaps some stock sales. Right now I am planning on using my Gh6/G9II and PL: 8-18, 12-60, 100-400 and Oly 60mm (insects/arachnids/lizards). Processing will be on an AMD 9950x/4070 TI super/Resolve PRO. I will be using only CFast/SD due to dust/rain and want to keep all elements "moisture proof", so H265 has a huge size advantage. It's only due to the potential for stock that I'm considering ProRes, but for ProRes I might need quite a few 512 GB or 1 TB Cfast cards which would additionally raise the projects cost.

I will be running some game cameras and additionally I need to get a good, small camera for imaging White Sharks. Don't want to rent a cage for the Gh6/8-18, but would like the cost of the basically one time use camera to under $1K. Any suggestions for cameras who would be an easy match for the Gh6/G9II in post and have very good video? Thanks.
 
If your computer can edit 265 then that's what you should use. It's not really a question of the price of cards it's the time and cost of maintaining a backup of it all. Also there's no reason to grade a Doc. The purpose of raw/ProRes is when you want to push the image significantly to impart a special look.
 
Peter C. said:
Also there's no reason to grade a Doc.
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That's crazy talk. :)

EVERYTHING needs grading. No camera is capable of providing the best image onboard. No matter what settings you choose, things can, and must be, improved upon in post. Especially a doc where there might not be time during shooting to fine-tune every setting, and also to match footage shot at different times and locations.

ProRes is an inefficient codec for acquistion. And H.265 is pain to work with in post unless you have a pretty powerful computer. I'm not familiar with the codec choices available on the Gh6/G9II, but all my Sony cameras and my Panasonic S1H offer far better choices than ProRes or H.265.

I recommend that the OP do some testing of his own to determine the best codec to use -- before he embarks on a major project.
 
You must have a pretty old PC setup to be missing GPU HW Accelerated HEVC/265 decoding. Anything younger than Doug should have no trouble in this day and age.
 
Without knowing panicsonic cameras Id say..

1) shoot 265 10bit

2) enjoy fast downloads and backups

3)if your computer cant play the material learn as proxy workflow in resolve. proxy in resolve is fine as long as you tell the project where you want the proxies to live.

My computer is older than Doug and I shoot 265 and get along fine.
 
jmone said:
You must have a pretty old PC setup to be missing GPU HW Accelerated HEVC/265 decoding. Anything younger than Doug should have no trouble in this day and age.
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Ha, ha. Even though I am a dinosaur, I do have an M2 MacBook Pro that can handle the H.265 files without too much trouble. Ironically, it's the younger people, trying to do stuff on the cheap, who reach out to me to help with playback issues in post. It always turns out to be H.265 or using drives that are too slow.

But even with my M2 Mac, I still think H.265 is a shitty codec for acquisition. It was made for streaming, and that's where it should stay. Cards are cheap and getting cheaper every day.
 
When I said grading is unnecessary I'm talking about the heavily graded work that needs to be filmed in Raw or similar codec. It's not like he couldn't shoot in ProRes but I'm getting that vibe, he's operating on a shoe string budget. So there are better things to spend money on, For myself I have an M1 and it does ok but I shoot primarily multi cam event work and for me at least the timeline slows down even with 4k H264. I now let FCP create a proxy. I could upgrade to a M4 but I'm cheap too.
 
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I might suggest that on a fiction feature control is there. Good monitors are there. A truck of lights are there to control contrast. The chance of shooting 'striaght to a look' is likely.

On a documentary the sun may pop in an out during a take One may be in an INT with super harsh windows. Our subject may walk east irrelvant of the light. Seuqnces may be shot across time spans continents or with varied crew.

Flexible gradable footage may be more relevant to a doc than narrative fiction.

It is certainly worth testing the codecs. My zcam I dont worry about proRezz 265 is fine.
 
Strongly disagree that you don't need to grade a doc. I've used the same colourist for the last 25 years, Andy Elliott at Director's Cut in London and he always adds so much value to every film.

As Doug suggests, offload your rushes after every day of filming which you should do anyway to be able to review what you've got. Resolve is excellent for cloning them on to separate ssds.

You do not need to shoot RAW, no broadcast doc in the UK ever shoots RAW. I also have never shot or would choose either h.265 or Prores as codecs for a doc project.
 
For max dynamic range on the GH6/G911 shoot VLOG. As to codec if you want 10 bit 4:2:2 you will need to shoot ALL-I, h264, etc as h265 is 4:2:0. They will all be MOV files with LPCM sound as mp4 is really no use for your application. I am puzzled why they even both to include mp4 on these cameras. Like Peter I shoot multicam with GH6, GH5S so for GH6 use h265 for my shoots see no point in other choices but both shoot VLOG all the time. Edit in Resolve so VLog is simple with colour managed projects with no extra work.
 
Peter C. said:
When I said grading is unnecessary I'm talking about the heavily graded work that needs to be filmed in Raw or similar codec. It's not like he couldn't shoot in ProRes but I'm getting that vibe, he's operating on a shoe string budget. So there are better things to spend money on, For myself I have an M1 and it does ok but I shoot primarily multi cam event work and for me at least the timeline slows down even with 4k H264. I now let FCP create a proxy. I could upgrade to a M4 but I'm cheap too.
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I shoot exclusively ProRes on black magic 4K and all my footage requires grading
 
Doug Jensen said:
Proxies?? In this day and age? You gotta be crazy or very cheap.
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I helped out a friend's short film recently, was sent the project file in Resolve with the clips in their native form (Red camera, so R3D's). My 3 yr old Mac Studio M1 Max couldn't play back the clips in real time, no matter what settings I monkeyed with (1/4 resolution etc). I ended up having to make proxies just so I could play the timeline at speed.
 
Yes I have an M1 Max too it does really well with h264, h265 or Prores since it has hardware decoders for those. My PC is better at decoding files for which the M1 does not have hardware decoders since the Threadripper CPU and particularly the 4070Ti is much more powerful than the GPU in the M1 Max. Also true for encoding where the PC can be 4 times faster. The M1Max is great for editing my files ( h265 and h264 ) as it is silent and fast but I often move to the PC for final render if I have lots of Fusion effects or titles as the PC is then a lot faster. My projects are usually 2 hours so something 4 times faster is significant.
For the OP I think his choice is to use h264 on both his camera Vlog, 10 bit 4:2:2 and yes he will have to grade his output whether he is shooting for rec709 or HDR output. Vlog on those camera will give dynamic range over twice rec709 so will need grading for that for sure. Shooting Vlog he has the opportunity for both. Depending on camera this is 150Mbps or he could go ALL-I at 400Mbps for 23.98 or if he prefers smooth motion like me 200Mbps h264 or 600Mbps All-I at 59.94..
 
CharlesPapert said:
I helped out a friend's short film recently, was sent the project file in Resolve with the clips in their native form (Red camera, so R3D's). My 3 yr old Mac Studio M1 Max couldn't play back the clips in real time, no matter what settings I monkeyed with (1/4 resolution etc). I ended up having to make proxies just so I could play the timeline at speed.
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Charles, I don't have any experience with RED, but your story surprises me. Sony 16-Bit RAW and X-OCN play perfectly on all my old Intel MacBook Pros, not to mention my newer M2. Is that RED codec just that much worse?

Also, tell me about your SSD and the method of connecting it to your computer? In my experience when people report poor playback, that is almost always the source of the problem. What was/is your hardware setup for clip storage during editing?
 
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