Lliam Worthington
Active member
Hello everyone, or G'day as the case maybe,
Firstly I'd like to to give a big shout out to everyone who regularly contributes their expertise to this amazing site. I don't think i can say enough about the invaluable global resource that you have all collectively created. The huge amounts of knowledge and insight now so readily accessed blows my mind. I remember trying to put together a kit to shoot my first short film 13 years ago and how I would call shops and network with film makers to try and gather advice on equipment while ordering rental catalogue's to try and get a gauge of what I might hope to use, rent or buy. This is all well and good of course, but living in a regional area of Australia what I can now learn with a day of dedicated searching on forums and youtube etc would have taken me weeks at the very least, if even possible. In short I have gained so much knowledge from reading these forums and I hope one day to be able to contribute and give back to the community with the same good will and knowledge that so many others have shown and has benefited me so far. So thank you all.
Usually with all the information already out there I manage to answer my own questions, but as I have now spent many many hours researching I would greatly appreciate some experienced advice to help make my final decisions as I endeavour to put together the sound solution for the micro budget Indi feature I am directing/shooting.
I know *Groan* it's such a familiar and sometimes painful story... and even though it's covered in the Q&A, I'll say it now also, that yes, I would love to attach a professional sound recordist to the project. But unfortunately my budget, shoot location and schedule make it highly unlikely in this instance. It's not impossible so I'm already trying, but it's unlikely so I am forming my plan B which has a high possibility of becoming my plan A.
I've done a lot of homework and I believe I have a fairly good idea of the key sound equipment options that are within my budget, but as said some feedback and a little advice would be greatly appreciated in hlping me reach the best decisions.
I also thought I better double post - first in the "read first sticky" as this is what it seemed initially intended for and you are requested to do... But as it seems to have become defunct and outdated in the last couple of years (a shame for such a great and useful thread) as a precaution I have also posted my own thread (which could be the one your reading right now) to ensure I don't get missed. However Mods if my post in sticky is receiving much feedback, perhaps you could bump my other thread to the sticky?
Ok, down to it then... I wrote up my response to the excellent questions once posed by Jeremy for the benefit of all...
Note: I am shooting on a 7D in case anyone wonders.
1. What is the budget that we are working with (either immediately or over the next few months)
My film is micro budget, so my sound budget is unfortunately only "supposed" to be $2,500. I know, I know. But I have just secured a Rode NTG 3 today for the shoot for free - and have a fair bit of XLR cable so that helps a little. Also as I will still have to pay shipping and taxes as well on top as AUS prices on gear are just absurd (killing our local stores - they just can't compete) it will be closer to $3k in actuality I am spending - regardless though please still let me know if you believe a couple hundred could make the difference for a significantly more optimal gear config and I'll just have to find it somehow. Alternatively, hey, if I can save a few hundred with no significant difference in your opinion, then also let me know.
Also due to the content of my film, I really have no practical use for lavs at all so that I guess helps a little as well compared to what might be a more typically necessary film kit.
Now please know, I do understand and appreciate that 3k odd is very low to be purchasing sound equipment with any hope of producing sound quality good enough for a potential theatrical release. Especially if I can't attach a pro. I've read many such posts on this. And I understand their will be shortfalls/compromises, but much as a good DP will likely tell me that the Canon EF primes I have are probably too soft for the big screen, where my tools and budget fall short, it's going to be up to my story and creativity to cover the shortfall and determine the overall worth of my film, FWIW I'm excited by this challenge. But I'm of course being as diligent as possible to try and stretch my budget to get as much quality as I can into the production.
2. What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews)
Feature.
3. Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors?
95% of my shoot is exteriors in pretty rugged conditions - ocean/reefs/beach. As such I will be working/recording in hot sun/high temperatures with humidity -- on the beach and out on the water booming over swimmers and surfers. (This was a key reason behind my choice of a 7D and I was looking at getting a Rode NTG3, but then managed to find a friend who who already had one and owed me a favour.
So I primarily be recording dialogue and ambience beds outdoors - as well as some foley and fx.
Interior wise - there is only a dialogue scene in a four wheel drive and a handful of lines in a noisy part scene in a house.
The frenetic nature of the party I am not concerned with because I can be creative in mixing and the dialogue is secondary to the actors physical interaction and body language in these scenes.
I am however wondering if I can get away with the NTG3 for the 4 wheel drive scene as I've heard I could as it's more forgiving with its wider pattern, but I can also have some dooners and pillows in there as it's a road trip scene which could help. But if it's still too ill advised, I will look to borrow or hire for this scene so recommendations as to what and why would be much appreciated.
4. Will you be shooting outside at all with sound?
Yes, as said 95% will be exteriors. The dialogue in relative terms, could be considered sparse. This is not a talking heads pic. But as such i will in turn be somewhat more reliant on good ambience, foley and the overall sound design/FX as a result.
5. What level of experience do you have with sound?
I've been "around" sound a fair bit, have worked with some talented pro's, and I have also boomed, recorded and mixed in post for my own shorts a while back and done a little bit of foley and effects for them.
But that's all been of a pretty amateur level, so for all intents and purposes with this gear and sound in general I'm nothing more than a fairly switched on and well researched noob.
This is of course of concern to me. And so logically I have concerns about the sophistication of the equipment I might be purchasing and getting the best out it If I don't have a pro onboard.
But you can only do what you can.
6. What is the outlet you are hoping to have with the projects (DVD release for profit, web distribution, theatrical)
Theatrical via a festival pathway. If I fail I will be looking at the other ancillary markets.
7. Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects?
Specific project. If the film makes it into the black I would be looking to upgrade my kit or sell it as I move onto the next project. But if it does not, then I can at least use my kit and or hire it out to help raise further funds for my next project.
8. Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio?
Rates in Sydney are generally between 300 - 450 per day without gear - 600+ with for a pro. 3k might still be enough of a starting point to try and negotiate something with somebody -
but I am 2 hours from sydney where the for hire pros can be found and I will be operating in remote locations on a very difficult schedule where I will need to be able to either power ahead or cancel at a moments notice
So hiring a professional is looking pretty unlikely for me. Regardless I am still hoping I may be able to get some experienced help. But I certainly can't bank on it, so I'm looking at how to best adapt to the situation and move forward. At least there are some pro's to having some gear of my own and the more I learn about any aspect of production the better a director I find I become.
9. Will you have a dedicated person to run sound (even a friend to hold a boompole)?
As above - what i'm thinking is that I can hopefully find a talented and keen film student or former student still looking for some field experience, who ideally might be able to augment my gear.
My worse case is I will have around 7 months to test and learn my gear while studying and coming on line for advice etc while I line up some film making friends to help out on the shoot.
10 Does static in the background bother you. When you watch DVXfest films did you notice how on some films there is this white noise and then it disappears? Do you notice good sound?
Yes. Especially when it's my OWN! Though I'm sure not anywhere near to the degree of actual pro's. You don't know what you don't know... if you know what I mean.
Ok, so based on my research, release goals, and my particular projects requirements, here are my thoughts on equipment...
SOUND EQUIPMENT LIST
* Ty Ford Audio & Video Book: Audio Bootcamp Field Guide 4th Edition by Ty Ford $25
* Rode NTG-3 *Free*
* Gitzo 3560 - Six-Section Carbon Fiber Boompole (has length up to 4m as I'm going to need it. $315 (Anyone recommend a better option?)
Articulating boom would probably be most ideal - but too expensive.
* Sony MDR-7506 Circumaural Closed-Back Professional Monitor Headphone $83
* Rode Blimp - Complete Windshield and Suspension System $299[/COLOR]
TOTAL: $ 722
Key recorders I'm considering...
Sound Devices 702 - High-Resolution 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder $1875
Fostex FR-2 LE - 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder $600
Edirol / Roland R-44 Solid-State $995
Others I've considered
Marantz PMD661 Professional Portable Flash Field Recorder
HD P2
Sony PCM-D50
Tascam DR 100
Zoom h4n
Key Mixers I'm considering...
Sound Devices 302 $1295
Sound Devices Mixpre $665
(also investigated Juiced links)
My major thought is...
* As there are no situations that I need to set up multiple mics for... (truly) and I'm likely lacking a highly skilled technician, so simpler the better... so thinking forget about a mixer and instead just fork out for the quality 702 which should help me get good raw sound into post if we do a half decent job on set.
* Otherwise I could try to buy my 702 used and look to combine with a mixpre and still scrape inside my budget.
Or otherwise I would probably lean toward a combinations of...
*Mixpre with the Edirol R-44 or the Fostex FR-2 LE
Or although it doesn't make as much sense to me to do it this way round...
* Sound Devices 302 with the Edirol or Fostex.
* Unfortunately even used I don't think I could manage to get 302 & 702 and make my budget. never know your luck though.
*I would also need to spend on required cables and batteries etc.
Other issues :
* Timecode. As I am editing in FCP, from the recommendations I will be using plural eyes. I have read people successfully using the 7D's internal mic... But thinking I will still fork out for or borrow a cheap on camera mic unless someone can nominate a better solution. I'll run tests of course and if it's not working perfectly I will just go with a good old fashioned clapper approach.
*Once I have my ket equipment finalised - some advice on best cabling workflow etc would be hugely appreciated.
*Even advice on the best way to carry the kit would be very valuable to me, knowing that I wont be working with a cart.
Thanks so much in advance to anyone who offers their time and some help and for reading this massive post.
Best Wishes
Lliam Worthington
Firstly I'd like to to give a big shout out to everyone who regularly contributes their expertise to this amazing site. I don't think i can say enough about the invaluable global resource that you have all collectively created. The huge amounts of knowledge and insight now so readily accessed blows my mind. I remember trying to put together a kit to shoot my first short film 13 years ago and how I would call shops and network with film makers to try and gather advice on equipment while ordering rental catalogue's to try and get a gauge of what I might hope to use, rent or buy. This is all well and good of course, but living in a regional area of Australia what I can now learn with a day of dedicated searching on forums and youtube etc would have taken me weeks at the very least, if even possible. In short I have gained so much knowledge from reading these forums and I hope one day to be able to contribute and give back to the community with the same good will and knowledge that so many others have shown and has benefited me so far. So thank you all.
Usually with all the information already out there I manage to answer my own questions, but as I have now spent many many hours researching I would greatly appreciate some experienced advice to help make my final decisions as I endeavour to put together the sound solution for the micro budget Indi feature I am directing/shooting.
I know *Groan* it's such a familiar and sometimes painful story... and even though it's covered in the Q&A, I'll say it now also, that yes, I would love to attach a professional sound recordist to the project. But unfortunately my budget, shoot location and schedule make it highly unlikely in this instance. It's not impossible so I'm already trying, but it's unlikely so I am forming my plan B which has a high possibility of becoming my plan A.
I've done a lot of homework and I believe I have a fairly good idea of the key sound equipment options that are within my budget, but as said some feedback and a little advice would be greatly appreciated in hlping me reach the best decisions.
I also thought I better double post - first in the "read first sticky" as this is what it seemed initially intended for and you are requested to do... But as it seems to have become defunct and outdated in the last couple of years (a shame for such a great and useful thread) as a precaution I have also posted my own thread (which could be the one your reading right now) to ensure I don't get missed. However Mods if my post in sticky is receiving much feedback, perhaps you could bump my other thread to the sticky?
Ok, down to it then... I wrote up my response to the excellent questions once posed by Jeremy for the benefit of all...
Note: I am shooting on a 7D in case anyone wonders.
1. What is the budget that we are working with (either immediately or over the next few months)
My film is micro budget, so my sound budget is unfortunately only "supposed" to be $2,500. I know, I know. But I have just secured a Rode NTG 3 today for the shoot for free - and have a fair bit of XLR cable so that helps a little. Also as I will still have to pay shipping and taxes as well on top as AUS prices on gear are just absurd (killing our local stores - they just can't compete) it will be closer to $3k in actuality I am spending - regardless though please still let me know if you believe a couple hundred could make the difference for a significantly more optimal gear config and I'll just have to find it somehow. Alternatively, hey, if I can save a few hundred with no significant difference in your opinion, then also let me know.
Also due to the content of my film, I really have no practical use for lavs at all so that I guess helps a little as well compared to what might be a more typically necessary film kit.
Now please know, I do understand and appreciate that 3k odd is very low to be purchasing sound equipment with any hope of producing sound quality good enough for a potential theatrical release. Especially if I can't attach a pro. I've read many such posts on this. And I understand their will be shortfalls/compromises, but much as a good DP will likely tell me that the Canon EF primes I have are probably too soft for the big screen, where my tools and budget fall short, it's going to be up to my story and creativity to cover the shortfall and determine the overall worth of my film, FWIW I'm excited by this challenge. But I'm of course being as diligent as possible to try and stretch my budget to get as much quality as I can into the production.
2. What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews)
Feature.
3. Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors?
95% of my shoot is exteriors in pretty rugged conditions - ocean/reefs/beach. As such I will be working/recording in hot sun/high temperatures with humidity -- on the beach and out on the water booming over swimmers and surfers. (This was a key reason behind my choice of a 7D and I was looking at getting a Rode NTG3, but then managed to find a friend who who already had one and owed me a favour.
So I primarily be recording dialogue and ambience beds outdoors - as well as some foley and fx.
Interior wise - there is only a dialogue scene in a four wheel drive and a handful of lines in a noisy part scene in a house.
The frenetic nature of the party I am not concerned with because I can be creative in mixing and the dialogue is secondary to the actors physical interaction and body language in these scenes.
I am however wondering if I can get away with the NTG3 for the 4 wheel drive scene as I've heard I could as it's more forgiving with its wider pattern, but I can also have some dooners and pillows in there as it's a road trip scene which could help. But if it's still too ill advised, I will look to borrow or hire for this scene so recommendations as to what and why would be much appreciated.
4. Will you be shooting outside at all with sound?
Yes, as said 95% will be exteriors. The dialogue in relative terms, could be considered sparse. This is not a talking heads pic. But as such i will in turn be somewhat more reliant on good ambience, foley and the overall sound design/FX as a result.
5. What level of experience do you have with sound?
I've been "around" sound a fair bit, have worked with some talented pro's, and I have also boomed, recorded and mixed in post for my own shorts a while back and done a little bit of foley and effects for them.
But that's all been of a pretty amateur level, so for all intents and purposes with this gear and sound in general I'm nothing more than a fairly switched on and well researched noob.
This is of course of concern to me. And so logically I have concerns about the sophistication of the equipment I might be purchasing and getting the best out it If I don't have a pro onboard.
But you can only do what you can.
6. What is the outlet you are hoping to have with the projects (DVD release for profit, web distribution, theatrical)
Theatrical via a festival pathway. If I fail I will be looking at the other ancillary markets.
7. Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects?
Specific project. If the film makes it into the black I would be looking to upgrade my kit or sell it as I move onto the next project. But if it does not, then I can at least use my kit and or hire it out to help raise further funds for my next project.
8. Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio?
Rates in Sydney are generally between 300 - 450 per day without gear - 600+ with for a pro. 3k might still be enough of a starting point to try and negotiate something with somebody -
but I am 2 hours from sydney where the for hire pros can be found and I will be operating in remote locations on a very difficult schedule where I will need to be able to either power ahead or cancel at a moments notice
So hiring a professional is looking pretty unlikely for me. Regardless I am still hoping I may be able to get some experienced help. But I certainly can't bank on it, so I'm looking at how to best adapt to the situation and move forward. At least there are some pro's to having some gear of my own and the more I learn about any aspect of production the better a director I find I become.
9. Will you have a dedicated person to run sound (even a friend to hold a boompole)?
As above - what i'm thinking is that I can hopefully find a talented and keen film student or former student still looking for some field experience, who ideally might be able to augment my gear.
My worse case is I will have around 7 months to test and learn my gear while studying and coming on line for advice etc while I line up some film making friends to help out on the shoot.
10 Does static in the background bother you. When you watch DVXfest films did you notice how on some films there is this white noise and then it disappears? Do you notice good sound?
Yes. Especially when it's my OWN! Though I'm sure not anywhere near to the degree of actual pro's. You don't know what you don't know... if you know what I mean.
Ok, so based on my research, release goals, and my particular projects requirements, here are my thoughts on equipment...
SOUND EQUIPMENT LIST
* Ty Ford Audio & Video Book: Audio Bootcamp Field Guide 4th Edition by Ty Ford $25
* Rode NTG-3 *Free*
* Gitzo 3560 - Six-Section Carbon Fiber Boompole (has length up to 4m as I'm going to need it. $315 (Anyone recommend a better option?)
Articulating boom would probably be most ideal - but too expensive.
* Sony MDR-7506 Circumaural Closed-Back Professional Monitor Headphone $83
* Rode Blimp - Complete Windshield and Suspension System $299[/COLOR]
TOTAL: $ 722
Key recorders I'm considering...
Sound Devices 702 - High-Resolution 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder $1875
Fostex FR-2 LE - 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder $600
Edirol / Roland R-44 Solid-State $995
Others I've considered
Marantz PMD661 Professional Portable Flash Field Recorder
HD P2
Sony PCM-D50
Tascam DR 100
Zoom h4n
Key Mixers I'm considering...
Sound Devices 302 $1295
Sound Devices Mixpre $665
(also investigated Juiced links)
My major thought is...
* As there are no situations that I need to set up multiple mics for... (truly) and I'm likely lacking a highly skilled technician, so simpler the better... so thinking forget about a mixer and instead just fork out for the quality 702 which should help me get good raw sound into post if we do a half decent job on set.
* Otherwise I could try to buy my 702 used and look to combine with a mixpre and still scrape inside my budget.
Or otherwise I would probably lean toward a combinations of...
*Mixpre with the Edirol R-44 or the Fostex FR-2 LE
Or although it doesn't make as much sense to me to do it this way round...
* Sound Devices 302 with the Edirol or Fostex.
* Unfortunately even used I don't think I could manage to get 302 & 702 and make my budget. never know your luck though.
*I would also need to spend on required cables and batteries etc.
Other issues :
* Timecode. As I am editing in FCP, from the recommendations I will be using plural eyes. I have read people successfully using the 7D's internal mic... But thinking I will still fork out for or borrow a cheap on camera mic unless someone can nominate a better solution. I'll run tests of course and if it's not working perfectly I will just go with a good old fashioned clapper approach.
*Once I have my ket equipment finalised - some advice on best cabling workflow etc would be hugely appreciated.
*Even advice on the best way to carry the kit would be very valuable to me, knowing that I wont be working with a cart.
Thanks so much in advance to anyone who offers their time and some help and for reading this massive post.
Best Wishes
Lliam Worthington
Last edited:
