GH5 GH6 and the future of M43

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filmguy123

Veteran
So the dawn of the EVA-1 is upon us... S35 and FF is getting cheaper and cheaper...

Yet, technology is improving rapidly. Potential future organic M43 sensor, a stacked BSI m43 sensor, with even better CPU processing, etc.? And in addition, IQ is getting to the "sweet spot" ever rapidly - sure, the horizon always recedes, but the GH5 is insanely impressive and if we speculate what's possible in even 3 years (14 stops DR, clean ISO 6400 and/or a Dual ISO m43 sensor, internal 4K 60p 4:2:2 @ 400+ mbps, etc.).

And again, on the flip side, in 3 years time with S35 and FF getting cheaper and cheaper, and smaller and lighter...

Does the future of M43 look bright to you? Is there a genuine long term place for it in the market? Do you see companies such as Panasonic being committed to it long term (GH6, GH7, GH8) as a true video tool and solution?

How do you feel about investing $$ into native M43 glass - would you invest $5,000 in native M43 glass to maximize the power, portability, and flexibility of the platform?

Or do you see m43 as a great today solution, but dead by 2020? Or a potential GH6, with serious improvements in say a GH7 unlikely, with companies forsaking it in favor of S35/APS-C and FF?
 
theres a separaton in division in panasonic when it comes to cameras.
what ever the pro division does, does not dictate the future of the digital imaging division.
 
Its difference in size to S35 is negligible, to me. The depth of field is just 1 stop deeper. That can be good or bad. But either way, it's slight. For the same pixel count, S35's pixels will be bigger. So less noise, more dynamic range. But again to me it is slight.

4/3, S35, and 135 are all to me "large sensors." "Small sensors" would be 1/4, 1/3 . . . on up to S16. In the olden days, these were all you got. Nowadays they're getting harder to find. And I don't miss them.

Would I spend a ton of money on lenses that cover only 4/3? No. But then again I never would. Regardless of which camera I have, I'd probably stick a Nikkor from the 1980s on it.
 
filmguy123 said:
So the dawn of the EVA-1 is upon us... S35 and FF is getting cheaper and cheaper...

Yet, technology is improving rapidly. Potential future organic M43 sensor, a stacked BSI m43 sensor, with even better CPU processing, etc.? And in addition, IQ is getting to the "sweet spot" ever rapidly - sure, the horizon always recedes, but the GH5 is insanely impressive and if we speculate what's possible in even 3 years (14 stops DR, clean ISO 6400 and/or a Dual ISO m43 sensor, internal 4K 60p 4:2:2 @ 400+ mbps, etc.).

And again, on the flip side, in 3 years time with S35 and FF getting cheaper and cheaper, and smaller and lighter...

Does the future of M43 look bright to you? Is there a genuine long term place for it in the market? Do you see companies such as Panasonic being committed to it long term (GH6, GH7, GH8) as a true video tool and solution?

How do you feel about investing $$ into native M43 glass - would you invest $5,000 in native M43 glass to maximize the power, portability, and flexibility of the platform?

Or do you see m43 as a great today solution, but dead by 2020? Or a potential GH6, with serious improvements in say a GH7 unlikely, with companies forsaking it in favor of S35/APS-C and FF?
Click to expand...

If you want to protect your lens investment start buying only manual FF glass regardless of what sensor your current camera has. This is especially true for those wanting to move up to a sub 10 K cinema camera.
 
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I'm an enthusiastic fan of the format- GH3, GH4 and Dvx200 owner here. It does so many things well, and is so versatile. It does appear that Panasonic is backing away from it on the broadcast side of the fence. My sense is that they are going to go 1 inch sensors on the smaller side and S35 on the larger. It makes sense, can't blame them... M43 will retreat back to the "consumer" side of the playground. Bummer. I doubt there will be a follow up to the DVX200.

Contrary to many sentiments here, I'm investing in more M43 glass than previously. Just purchased a used 42.5 1.2. I'll probably add a 15mm 1.7 at some point as well, with a GH5 to follow later in the year. Up to this point I've primarily been using the f2.8 zoom duo. IMO, the format really starts to shine with faster glass. I wish they would add some faster zooms.

I shoot stills as well as motion. I was doing that long before it became a thing called "hybrid photography". M43 just makes it easier, more economical and simpler. I love how it can wear so many hats depending on the occasion. My gear gets used for motion work, stills ( time lapse, portrait, studio,event) , travel, family shots etc.

I sold my HPX300 this year- good riddance to any sensor smaller then 1 inch. 1 inch is the new 1/3- yea.

There may be an Eva in my future at some point, probably not soon. I'm not ready to spend for a new system and all the assorted kit. It's appears to be another kick ass Panasonic camera. For the time being, M43 covers so many needs, and so well. Regardless of whatever formats I may add in the future, I can't see getting rid of the M43 gear.

My .5 cents.
 
Here is how I see it. On the stills side, m4/3rds is Panasonic's niche. They know they can not compete with a FF camera so they will stick to this format going forward. On the video side, I see two camps - one that needs SDOF and one that needs long versatile lenses. M4/3rds is kind of in the gray area imho. With 4k a 1" sensor is the sweet spot for pixel size and lens options. If they can make a constant f2,8 20x zoom they will be golden for all general purpose "video". The move to S35 is because that already is the standard. Why fight against an industry just because? I think it is a smart move for Panasonic to join everybody else with this sensor size.

The GH series will still exist and improve. Small camera are a part of many shooters toolbox. Sony offers many different sensor sizes in cameras. Why not Panasonic?
 
The GH5 is in the sweet spot for light weight, telephoto reach with an additional bump from ETC and shallow enough depth of field for very cinematic images with native primes. This format is by far and away the most well rounded for a do it all adventure cam. My setup with GH5, 15, 42.5, 100-300, sticks and a Mavic Pro is under 10 lbs. I sure hope Panasonic keeps improving the line. It's amazing times we live in for sure !!!
 
Yes, the future of m4/3 looks great to me. With the new GH5 we finally have an affordable camera that shoots 10-bit 4:2:2 in several formats, a camera that can shoot 5K anamorphic, and a camera with excellent built-in stabilization that makes hand-held shots easy to pull off.

Why would Panasonic leave the m4/3 format any time soon ? This is a format that they pioneered with Olympus, that is able to do things that other formats can't.

Just because the new EVA1 is a Super35 camera doesn't mean the sky is falling on the m4/3 format. Panasonic went with a camera design that would appeal the the largest market segment to ensure a better chance to compete against the other camera companies, and this meant a Super35 sensor and a Canon EF lens mount.

When I upgraded to the GH5 I bought a bunch of new native lenses to go with it. My native lens line-up will soon look like this: 7.5mm f/3.5 fish-eye, 7.5mm f/2.0 super wide, 8-18mm f/2.8-4.0 super wide, 12-32mm f/3.5-5.6 compact, 12-35mm f/2.8 "workhorse", 30mm f/1.4 "interview", 50mm f/1.2 "shallow DOF interview", 35-100mm f/4.0-5.6 "compact tele", 35-100mm f/2.8 mk2 "short tele", 100-300mm f/4.0-5.6 mk2 "longer tele" ( and eight Nikon AI-S FF lenses that fill in the gaps )

I expect to be using these lenses for the next 5-10 years, which will probably include new camera bodies along the way: GH6, GH7, GH8, etc...

I am going to keep a keen eye on the EVA1 this year and will probably rent it a few times to see how much I like it. Given what I can get out of the GH5 right now, I'm not sure how much I need an actual cine camera for the work that I do. I figure that I will get better dynamic-range and better low-light performance as the GHx cameras keep improving, so my m4/3 lenses are a good investment. ( I will probably add a few more high-speed native primes in the next year or so )

Dead in 2020 ??? ...By what ??? ...A group of giant meteors wiping out all of the Panasonic buildings ??? :evil:

...If I end up buying a dedicated cine camera with a Canon EF lens mount I will have no problem keeping my GHx gear around to give me different shooting options that I can rely upon.
 
Don't think m4/3 is going anywhere but up...as for lenses and cameras...I think S35 will remain the holy grail for narrative...but perhaps more specific feature films or television series like Breaking Bad...The Wire...House of cards etc....as for FF...impractical to shoot something any longer than a very short film in FF...especially with fast lenses and open aperture...razor thin focus is a DP's worst nightmare...so personally I see the M4/3 sensor as Bcam to a S35 sensor with a bright future...but my interest is narrative...
 
filmguy123 said:
Is there a genuine long term place for it in the market?
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In my lifetime, we went from antennae, to cable, to VHS, to DVD, to Blu-ray, to UHD.

In my career, I went from Super 8 film, to VHS, to S-VHS, to MiniDV, to HD, to 4K.

How do you define "long term"?
 
The missing link, a New Panasonic 4K MFT Cinema Camera at under 5K

As a long time supporter of all things Panasonic I had hoped that we would see the introduction of a 4K replacement for the AF100. Although the EFA-1 will be competitive with introductions from Canon and Sony it still leaves a gap for those of us that support MFT cameras & lenses.

S35 and FF may be the future for some but many of us are more than satisfied with MFT as illustrated by Panasonic & Olympus camera & lens sales.
 
I think what you wanted has come in the form of the GH5. Panasonic has shown reluctance to participate in the $4,000 - $6,000 market in recent years. I want them to make a P2 version of their 1" cam. Sort of an upgrade to my PX270 1/3" cam. But we will see.

The GH5 with its 10bit 4:2:2 and 24bit audio addon has a lot of development for a hybrid and actual better specs than the DVX200. I do not know how the images compare side by side but probably close. The menu choices might set the DVX200 ahead. But anyway, this is Panasonic saying they do not want to make an AF200 because they do not have the confidence of its financial success. They would rather create a more "pro" camera with a S35 sensor in a higher price bracket.

On a side note about m4/3rds - my big issue with the format is the lenses. Yes there are a lot of lenses but imho the goal of the format sort of holds back the choices from a professional point of view. What I mean is that m4/3rds tries really hard to be small and light weight. Because of this a lot of the lenses are slow'ish. The sensor size is a little smaller so this should give the lens makers more freedom but especially with zooms, f2.8 and a lot of f4 going on. If I am going to purchase this format for pro use I need options. Why aren't there f2 zooms? There are f2.8 zooms for FF ! The pursuit of smaller keeps the format on the prosumer side.

When I shoot interviews the most shallow I like to go is f4 on FF, f2.8 on S35 and... would be f2 on m4/3rds Get my point? There is no set of lenses to match the Pro f2.8/f4 FF lenses out there. How are shooters used to this flexibility expected to use the format when a lateral move does not exist? No adapters, native glass. Ok, got that off my chest. :)
 
Bassman2003 said:
Why aren't there f2 zooms?
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Olympus made a f/2.0 zooms for their 4/3 system which were fantastic quality lenses, but they were big, weighed 900 and 1650 grams, and cost about $2,500 US each. I doubt they were big sellers given these features.

Bassman2003 said:
When I shoot interviews the most shallow I like to go is f4 on FF, f2.8 on S35 and... would be f2 on m4/3rds
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There are lots of fast m4/3 prime lenses : 7.5mm f/2.0, 8mm f/1.8, 12mm f/1.4, 15mm f/1.7, 17mm f/0.95, 20mm f/1.7, 25mm f/1.2, 25mm f/1.4, 30mm f/1.4, 42.5mm f/1.2, 50mm f/1.2, 75mm f/1.8, etc... So where is the problem ?
 
The problem for me is I do not shoot primes all of the time. People routinely pay over $2,000 for Canon and Nikon lenses because they know what they are buying for their needs. m4/3rds does not want to keep up with that segment of the market imho. In my view this de legitimatizes the format to some degree for professionals. If a wedding shooter uses every bit of their FF f2.8 zooms that are big, heavy and expensive, how can they justify less performance or DOF options with m4/3rds? Just saying they are leaving out the brass ring "L" equivalent options for their format.
 
m43 is just as much about stills and a lot of m43 users are professional photographers that moved to m43 because of the size and weight. m43 covers a market that no other camera manufacturer does well in right now. Those that want something better than their smartphone but don't want to haul around a big heavy backpack for a FF DSLR and a set of lenses.

m43 is also about flexibility. If you really want that s35mm look you can get it. Slap on a focal reducer and you have the same FOV and DOF as a s35mm or APS-C camera. I just don't see what the problem with this is. Ok you have to pay more for a focal reducer but the same is true if Panasonic suddenly decided to go with a larger sensor. At least with m43 the way it is the user gets to decide if they need that or not. If a user is 100% happy with what m43 can already do at the size and weight and comfort level then they don't need anything larger. Choices.

Things like DR and sensitivity could get better but is m43 really all that horrible? A s35mm sensor with 5.7k is really no different than a APS-C sensor with 20MP or higher resolution and that is at best a stop more sensitive. I have yet to really see the GH5 DR suffer compared to other cameras as well. I'm not talking scientific chart type tests but actual real world usage. People out there seem to be struggling to show the GH5 getting destroyed by other cameras and 90% of the people who speak badly about the DR of the GH5 do so entirely based on the 12 stop spec they saw.

Finally heat. m43 is the only DSLR that doesn't melt and when it comes to a professional tool I want one that doesn't crash or shutdown when it is sad. Using an APS-C pr FF camera to shoot long form video is like over clocking a PC to get an extra 5fps in a gaming session and right before you speed run a Diablo victory the PC crashes. No thanks. m43 is about stability and actually knowing the tool will keep working as we need it to. If I have to shoot a 3 hour concert in Vegas in the middle of July I want a camera I know will not shut down or melt. Melt in your heart not in your hand should be the m43 slogan.

So please keep m43 exactly as it is. There is nothing wrong with m43 and it is an extremely well made stable format. If I want a s35mm look I can add a focal reducer. If I want compact I can have that too. If I want to shoot in the desert all day I can. It really is the most versatile format out there. Hybrid typically means stills or video but in the case of m43 it also means any environment and m43 or s35mm look if you so desire.
 
Bassman2003 said:
The format is fine, I would just like to see some f2 native zooms for me to get excited.
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If they suddenly popped up and were $2,500 each would you still be excited? What are you shooting with a zoom lens that f2.0 vs f2.8 would make or break the project? Have you considered the Sigma f1.8 zooms? Darn good lenses and you can get EF adapters that control everything except for the added stabilization. You can buy a SpeedBooster plus two Sigma f1.8 zooms for the price of what a single f2.0 m43 zoom lens would cost. Would even be over a stop more sensitive since you are using a focal reducer. So really it would be like a f1.2 zoom for native m43.
 
For me “The MFT Niche” works because at MFT prices we can justify up-grading our cameras every 2 or 3 years, that keeps us up with technology and a 2 or 3 year old camera is easy to sell at a good price when it’s time to replace it.
 
I admit I'm getting more and more fascinated with the GH4/5 camera, and never been a 4/3 fan so would never invest in the glass - because I can't really use it on other video camera's and stills bodies I own. (ok well maybe there is some berserk adapter out there but you know what i mean)

But using my nikons with a speed booster (like I do on bmpcc) or even my CP.2's on 4/3 with a straight up adapter is something that I wouldn't hesitate doing.

I'm really blown away with the quality of the GH4 after grading a few professional projects shot on them.. and I can easily see adding this to my arsenal of camera equipment.

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From the point of electronics and sensors, the market is getting into the "too good for the eye" territory. 5K is good enough. 10-bit 400 Mbps Log is good enough. 12-stops are good enough. SDXC cards are good enough. G6 will make another step up in quality to the point where the difference between high end and consumer will be even less noticeable. And, after that, it's the race to the bottom in terms of price. Look at there G7 and GX8 are now. And, in two years, some other camera will sell for $500 and shoot GH5 quality footage and no one will bat an eye.
 
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