GH5 GH5S for multi camera live broadcasting: genlock and others

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wilecoyote

Member
Hello:

I have to put together an equipment list to do multi camera broadcasting. What my company wants to do is:

-Livestream events in HD
-Record at the same time those events, in order to edit and archive them in 4K and HDR.

This means that we need cameras that can:

-Record internally in 4K 10-bit log, and at the same time...
-Send an HD or 4K signal through HDMI or SDI to a switcher (if it's 4K, it would have to be downconverted downstream).

I am wondering whether the GH5S can fit the above requirements, that is, send a HD signal while it's recording internally in 4K 10-bit.

Also, from what I've read, the GH5S has timecode in. I wonder: is it true genlock, or does it just sync TC?

Thanks.
 
Thanks a lot for your responses. One more thing I had forgotten: how about the 29:59 min. recording limit? We are planning to livestream and record concerts, so they would have to allow about 1:30 to 2 hours of recording time.
 
The GH5 's will run for as long as they are powered. You can change cards while running so with external power they can run forever !!! You can use the WiFi app to sync timecode on the GH5 with other Panasonic cameras so will be just as good as the GH5S. The advantage of the GH5S is the ability to sync timecode to other equipment. Internal recording in UHD 10 bit is up to 30P, external with no internal recording at 10bit can be 60P. You can set the HDMI output to be HD while recording UHD internally.
 
What are your priorities and limitations? Portable? Permanent? Image quality? DOF? Presumably you don't want to broadcast log... Is the idea that you would record and switch in log but LUT the program output?

From my point of view it's hard to argue with the value of a blackmagic setup, I just did an install with all blackmagic and the features and prices are pretty hard to beat but of course it has some of its own limitations.
 
- You can record V-LOG L and monitor with LUT. (You can also use a LUT box.)
- GH5/s has no record length limitation
- Another thumbs-up for BMD switching gear. Good stuff.
- Note that I've read about a meaningful timecode limitation. I can't remember the details, but there is a scenario that will make it so you have to re-sync. I recommend Googling to make sure it's not a deal breaker for you.
 
The blackmagic switcher will make it easy, but there are other things that can work as well like Tricaster, Wirecast, etc. If the runs are long, you'll want HDMI to SDI convertors and then of course you'll need SDI inputs on your switching device. You can offload some processing to something like an AJA HELO to encode the stream and connect to the streaming server (Youtube, facepalm, etc.). You might also be able to record that switched show with the HELO, not sure if that is working because I don't have one to test right now. I do have an older Matrox Monarch HD that claimed to be able to record and stream at the same time, but in reality they could never get it to work and maintain audio sync on the recording. I therefore do not suggest a Monarch stream encoder for anything.

What are you doing for audio? Audio sync can be a real issue for some of this stuff. On the Wirecast forums they would often suggest sending the audio to the cameras so that it would come in with the same timing as the video. Since it is known that GH cameras have a delay on the HDMI, you may be battling audio sync issues and may need to use a different camera to fix this. I think even the GH4 with the YAGH and sdi output had a delay to the video that would render the sync a mess.
 
Hello:

Thanks again for your suggestions. Let me take them one at the time:

What are your priorities and limitations? Portable? Permanent? Image quality? DOF? Presumably you don't want to broadcast log... Is the idea that you would record and switch in log but LUT the program output?
Click to expand...

nyvz: it's going to be a portable setup, in order to stream and record concerts "on the road". Ideally, what I'd like to do is to stream in 4K and HDR (we wouldn't be "broadcasting" for TV, but for the Internet), but I realize that right now the bandwidth and the technology aren't quite there yet (specially the part about HDR), so my plan is to livestream in HD and then archive the concert in 4K HDR. Hence my requirements. (If we were to broadcast directly on HDR, HLG would be a great solution, but I have heard that it isn't so easy to grade later).

From my point of view it's hard to argue with the value of a blackmagic setup, I just did an install with all blackmagic and the features and prices are pretty hard to beat but of course it has some of its own limitations.
Click to expand...

Do you mean Blackmagic ATEM switches? Thanks for the tip, I've been looking into them. Which leads me to another question: do you actually still need genlock these days? I had read somewhere that, with newer switches that have frame sync (Blackmagic, Tricasters), you can plug in cameras that aren't genlocked and it will still work, but I don't know whether to trust that information.

(Aside: it's been surprisingly hard to find modern cameras that have genlock. Even professional camcorders like the Sony Z150 or the Panasonic AG-DVX200 apparently don't have it).

What are you doing for audio? Audio sync can be a real issue for some of this stuff.
Click to expand...

Good question. To be honest, I haven't had time to think deeply about audio yet because I've been spending most of my time looking for cameras that fit my requirements. The concerts we are going to record have their own audio installation, so I was thinking about just take a feed from their mixing board into our switcher. (Obviously, we'll have to think about possible sync issues there). Which brings me to...


Since it is known that GH cameras have a delay on the HDMI, you may be battling audio sync issues and may need to use a different camera to fix this. I think even the GH4 with the YAGH and sdi output had a delay to the video that would render the sync a mess.
Click to expand...


Hrm. I see that the GH5S doesn't have SDI out; also, I've read in this forum about the delays with previous Panasonic models. Is the GH5S already out in the U.S.? Has anyone been able to try it yet?

Thanks again.
 
Not sure what delays you have read about with the GH5. First there is no sync issue between video and audio on the GH5, audio does start about 7 frames after video starts recording and of course the HDMI output is delayed with respect to the live performance ( it takes time to process video to HDMI and then place on HDMI output which is true for all my cameras whatever the manufacturer). As to audio if you shoot from the back of the hall and take audio from the theatre board there will be a difference as your camera will record audio with a delay due to sound travelling through the air compared to the board audio that gets to you by wire not the air to your mic on camera. In fact mics from around the room will all be different depending on their distance to the stage/speakers.
 
The GH Sync issue would come up when you take the video from the camera, and try to combine it with audio from the recording mixer. The biggest complaint normally is the lag between a camera move and when you see it on an HDMI attached monitor (a known issue). When you try to couple this with audio from an external source in a down stream mixer, your lip sync will be off unless you delay the audio to fit. This isn't dual sound where you sync things in post, this is LIVE production and even in several million dollar TV trucks, this is still an issue that must be handled every day. Most companies will do way too many sync tests during transmission checks to make sure the the audio and video are within tolerable alignment. It's not trivial or imaginary.

Regarding switchers with built in frame syncs, they introduce some amount of additional delay. Things like the Ross Carbonite are pretty minimal and they never would tell me the exact spec., but hinted at being at least 1 frame and possibly resolution dependent. I have never tested it with our switcher because most of the sources I need to sync this way don't matter if they have 1 frame or 10 frames (running 720/59.94p). Maybe not enough to worry about, but something to consider. When you really need it to work, then everything should be genlocked. Would something like a JVC LS300 work? It says it has SDI out, but no way to syncronize it, so you would again be working with frame syncs on each input.

What I would suggest, is get a decent switcher that can switch the UHD, and down-convert to feed to your stream encoder. Then you can record 4K either in camera or line cut (or ISO record if you want to spend the money for one of the many multichannel digital recorders like a 3 Play) at 4K. Not HDR but let's not get ahead of the technology just yet. The adoption of HDR is very small, is it worth the cost of cameras that support it right now? Will the contract stay long enough to recover the costs? How long will it take for 4k streaming to even work reliably in most parts of the USA? 1080 is tough enough most places, Spectrum certainly pukes on this most of the time when I try, and my connection should be double the data rate. Just more to consider while you are thinking about this and preparing a budget.

Alternate is maybe you need to look at some of the Black Magic cameras for this, like the Studio models and see if they make sense (and cents). Maybe an Ursa Mini 4K and all the other stuff that goes with it? Not going to be as cheap, but it should have most of the functions needed for real live production (viewfinders, data/control back and forth, intercom!, etc.). Unless all or most of your cameras will be unmanned, the value of these accessories should not be discounted.

And yes, multi-camera live to tape and live events is most of what I've done for the past almost 30 years. There are gorilla ways to do things, and there are proper ways to do things, and there are elegant ways to do things. Each choice costs lots more money! But makes getting the job done easier.
 
Have you shot live programming with a mirrorless camera form factor? While I am impressed as hell with the GH5S (I have one arriving today from Panasonic for testing), in my experience, it would be a not very great camera for what you are trying to shoot. You probably want the ability to servo zoom, and you probably would be better off with video cameras, rather than a mirrorless M43 hybrid. I will say that I saw low light tests shot with the GH5S back in November and it is amazing in low light, which is probably in your favor for concerts but the form factor and lack of servo zoom ability, coupled with the tiny size would not make it an ideal live, multi-camera broadcast type setup. Tough choice, might work okay, but I don't think it will be optimal. Problem is, most of the larger form factor 4K capable cameras that are affordable are fixed lens servo and relatively slow and not great in low light. So if your concerts are nicely lit, might be a better solution. But if your concerts are shot in low light, you might be stuck using the GH5S. The timecode will help but the lack of genlock means that sound and picture between multiple cameras on long takes will still slip.
 
You would have to add the Canon ZSG-C10 Control Grip for another $450. I don't know how you get power to it. Now you have over $9000 in a clunky solution with a somewhat slow lens that has 4.4x zoom, that really wants an ENG style camera. ENG camera lenses typically are faster than 4.4.

Does your company really need 10-bit 4k log internal recording or are those check marks someone came up with? You might do better to backoff on some of those checkmarks and seek something else. The UX-90 or UX-180 may be a better solution and far cheaper, easier to use. I think the simplicity of a real video camera may be worth considering.
 
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That may well be the case! Just pointing out as an option. Right now the Control Grip is included free in that price.

Regarding power, the Gripper GR-75s aren't bad. Light and versatile.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1258493-REG/gripper_series_gr_75_gripper_75_watt_battery.html

Or the Hawk Woods Sticky Battery
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354036-REG/hawk_woods_st_75_14_4v_75w_sticky_battery.html

Not a cheap solution though, but the GH5s lowlight would be a perfect fit for a 4.4 lens, and you probably would not want shallow DOF than 4.4-5.6 on M43 for something live event broadcast anyway, because you need it in focus. So that high ISO really is handy. With the right mounting hardware I don't think this would be too big or bulky at all.

You could also add a speedbooster to gain an extra stop on that lens and still pass electronic controls.

But Paul is right in there be much cheaper options if you can sacrifice 4K 10-bit and the high ISO performance.

By the way, if you just need static camera without the servo lens much of this is moot... lens options are plentiful and cheap with the m43 mount.
 
Thanks again for your suggestions. Let me respond:

Have you shot live programming with a mirrorless camera form factor? While I am impressed as hell with the GH5S (I have one arriving today from Panasonic for testing), in my experience, it would be a not very great camera for what you are trying to shoot.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, and in fact, I've been thinking about the zoom issue myself for the last couple of days. DSLR's weren't my first choice when putting together this project, but when I was looking at "real" video cameras, I was shocked by the fact that many of them didn't have genlock either (even the Sony FS7 needs an external unit for that!), and then I read about the new TC IN port in the GH5S, and I thought it was worth asking around, just in case.

As for the requirements... it's true that HDR is still in its infancy, but my company is putting together a budget for a relatively large purchase, and we want to be sure that our equipment doesn't get obsolete in a couple of years. Most major TV manufacturers have already launched HDR models, Youtube and Vimeo already offer HDR streaming, and I believe that Netflix is starting to offer it too as an option. In a couple of years, it might very well be a must have for acquisition (if not for broadcast), much like 4K right now, and I don't want to have to say to my managers... "errr, I'm afraid we'll have to replace all our cameras. Again.".

(It's unfortunate that I have to put together this proposal right now, instead of one year from now or one year ago; in either case, the market situation would have been much clearer).

Does your company really need 10-bit 4k log internal recording or are those check marks someone came up with? You might do better to backoff on some of those checkmarks and seek something else. The UX-90 or UX-180 may be a better solution and far cheaper, easier to use. I think the simplicity of a real video camera may be worth considering.
Click to expand...

Paul: thanks for those two suggestions. I'll definitely look into them if, despite all, we finally decide to ditch HDR.

As for "real video cameras", I already had my eyes set on the Sony Z150, and it was the perfect camera for us (it even has HDR!)... except that it doesn't have genlock. My next best choice right now is the Blackmagic Ursa Mini, which does have all the features I need (4K + 10 bit + genlock)... except that its low light performance isn't so great, from what I've been told.
 
Puredrifting and Paul F are hitting the points I was dancing around, there a no real substitutes for a camera that is designed for this type of production. You can get away with a lot, but if this is going to be a 20 show package, I'm not sure I could live with the hell of keeping it working for an entire tour/season. I hate to push JVC (my reasons are my own), but they make a few cameras that have real studio/EFP buildups with standard ENG motorized lenses and remote focus and zoom controls for not a huge amount of money. But they will be way more than a few GH5 cameras thrown together. You are essentially looking at $8000+ per camera, and that's without rear controls, bigger viewfinder, camera control units, etc. (unless there is a camera I'm not familiar with, which is possible)

Again, you could do a live broadcast (because a stream is really broadcast) with a bunch of USB web cameras and an audio interface, or you could rent a 5 million dollar production truck for $10,000 a day (might be cheaper for some trucks and depending on location and schedule) and pay crew $400 each per 10 hour day (average pay for sports events around here).

If I had my choice, it would be a production truck without hesitation. But you might need to settle for something similar that comes in a bunch of flight cases and only costs a several thousand $ a day to rent.
 
If you found a perfect camera, I wouldn't let lack of genlock stop me. I would take a good close look at how much delay is introduced by the switcher you choose (and the frame syncs built into it). A one frame delay is not something to be concerned about. 3 frames will be perceived and need adjustment. But if you feed the final mix audio through the switcher, most of what you are looking at will have an audio delay setting so you can get everything to match. Just don't look directly at the performers for your cut, look at your monitor (probably a multiviewer) and listen to the delayed mix (hard to do in the middle of a concert).

Oh and multiviewers that are included often have another couple of frames delay. To get almost no delay costs a lot of money for external multiviewers. It's workable and the BMD switchers are pretty good in this regard, at least the few older ones I've worked with in HD.
 
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