GH5 GH5 vs GH4 - did the GH4 look better in some instances?

[DeeZiD]

The EVA-1 is $7,345, the GH5 is $1,997.99.

You need to do processing to make what comes out of the sensor look palatable. For an expensive sensor that is doing "just a little" for a cheaper sensor that means "do a lot more".

I am certain that if Panasonic gives a firmware option that sends unaltered debayered data to the encoder the result will be far more unsatisfactory than when it is processed to make it look as good as possible.

Meh,
would prefer the Blackmagic (or ARRI, Varicam, EVA-1 etc.) way more. Less processing, probably only debayering, more actual detail. No signs of a videoish look, with harsh contours and the absence of low contrast textures, or even halos and ghosting. Am over it.
Btw sending an undebayered signal into a codec is pretty much what RED and Apple with ProRes RAW do. Works quite well.
But that's not what we're asking for anyway. Panasonic should just give us that bypass NR (or at least less destructive) and sharpening option. The codecs are quite capable. The GH5s sensor (IMX294) should be able to keep up with the sensor build into the EVA-1 at least in actual noise levels.

 

[SuperbeastPanda]

The EVA-1 is $7,345, the GH5 is $1,997.99.

You need to do processing to make what comes out of the sensor look palatable. For an expensive sensor that is doing "just a little" for a cheaper sensor that means "do a lot more".

I am certain that if Panasonic gives a firmware option that sends unaltered debayered data to the encoder the result will be far more unsatisfactory than when it is processed to make it look as good as possible.

How is it different than the unaltered/debayered data from the raw stills, which look pretty good? (not arguing, genuinely asking)

 

[Cary Knoop]

Panasonic should just give us that bypass NR (or at least less destructive) and sharpening option. The codecs are quite capable.

I don't think you understand, most noise cannot be compressed and since the encoder leaves only 3% of the original image, most of the 97% reduction is lossy compression, you would not want to waste much on noise.

 

[filmguy123]

The EVA-1 is $7,345, the GH5 is $1,997.99.

You need to do processing to make what comes out of the sensor look palatable. For an expensive sensor that is doing "just a little" for a cheaper sensor that means "do a lot more".

I am certain that if Panasonic gives a firmware option that sends unaltered debayered data to the encoder the result will be far more unsatisfactory than when it is processed to make it look as good as possible.

Which sounds reasonable, until like others have inquired and alluded to - how is it then that a "cheap" sensor - the same sensor - is delivering such pretty (presumably) RAW results from BMD?

This seems to make sense upon reading, until you witness in practice an insanely good looking, filmic image from a last gen BMD camera. And presumably only better upon September.

Sometime it seems as if the engineers on the GHx team just have a different image preference, and I understand how this could sell for mass appeal out of the box, but when pursuing the pro market, it would be nice if they had options to let us get to that RAW image - especially if the only real secret sauce on BMD is sending out a raw signal from the sensor. I think a lot of people would be very happy with a BMD level image from a 2x as expensive Panasonic body, because of everything else these cameras offer.

I am going to be a confused man upon fall 2018 if these are the same sensors and Panasonic GHx line keeps forcing us, with no options for bypass, to utilize baked in NR, sharpness, and optical corrections. It would be great if they just firmware updated to enable a ProRes RAW to v90 and a "pro" menu (even if it was another $99 unlock) to get access to things like "disable all NR" "disable all sharp" and "disable electronic lens corrections" as possibilities even when recording to standard video codecs.

 

[filmguy123]

Regarding compression Cary, this all sounds reasonable but looping back around - the GH4 uses more intense compression than GH5.

I was comparing GH4 Cine-D internal 420 8-bit footage to GH5 10-bit 422 footage on the shots I found I preferred. So it definitely can't be limited to just compression. I still suspect its the NR processing. Even at NR -5 the image is cleaner than GH4 by a long shot. On a sensor with smaller photosites. If it was primarily compression responsible, you'd think you'd see an improvement no?

 

[stoneinapond]

This seems to make sense upon reading, until you witness in practice an insanely good looking, filmic image from a last gen BMD camera. And presumably only better upon September.

Sometime it seems as if the engineers on the GHx team just have a different image preference, and I understand how this could sell for mass appeal out of the box, but when pursuing the pro market, it would be nice if they had options to let us get to that RAW image - especially if the only real secret sauce on BMD is sending out a raw signal from the sensor.

It's important to remember that we owe much of what is happening now in the low-end market for moving images to Panasonic, in that they led the way with the GH1, which was very heavily a consumer camera. I don't dismiss the impact of what the the Canon 5D mkII and Magic Latern team did, because they brought the concept of filmic into the market place of photo bodied cameras.

Panasonic's GH line still lives in the consumer division, and it remains to be seen whether they respond to the new BMPCC, or continue in their present tradition of updates.

 

[TheDingo]

Panasonic's GH line still lives in the consumer division, and it remains to be seen whether they respond to the new BMPCC, or continue in their present tradition of updates.

Unless Panasonic GH5 / GH5s sales tank (which I don't see happening any time soon), I would expect Panasonic to focus on what they will bring to the table with the GH6. My foolish guess is that the GH6 will expand dynamic range beyond the 12 F-stop V-Log L limit (maybe we will finally have the full Varicam V-Log profile in the GH6 body, with 13+ stops of dynamic range), it will have internal 4K 10-bit 60p recording, and if we are lucky GH5s low-light performance combined with full 5-axis IBIS. I wouldn't mind if they kept the GH5 and GH5s cameras, and made the GH6 a $3,000+ camera, because I am happy to pay for higher end features. Better camera choices are always good.

 

[filmguy123]

It's a good point stone, and in no way I'm being negative towards Panny. I've shot beautiful images on GH4 and GH5 to be sure. I also love an awful lot about those cameras. It's why I waste the time trying to figure them out, and dream about what would make them better.

Was shooting with EVA1 today. The images it produces are beautiful and definitely better than the GHx line. But it certainly is a different beast to work with when trying to be a solo op. Worth it? Yes. But I would be super excited to see Panasonic fix some of these niggles on the GH line because if they could the community would go crazy. Honestly, if the GHx line had an option to bypass all of the image processing they put on and deliver a BMD image - even foregoing full RAW and USB-C output and the cost difference - most people wouldn't be half as excited about the Pocket Cam 4k. It would just be a cheaper GHx with abysmal battery life and a non articulating screen.

The camera line for some time is trying to be everything to everyone and these three niggles (sharpness, NR, forced optical corrections) would go a loooonnggg way. Whether its via a responsive firmware update or a GH6 line, I just hope they do something. Either way I'm sure I'll end up owning a GH6 as well.

A GH6 that delivered GH5s lowlight, IBIS (with an option to fully lock IBIS on "off" mode so it could be locked off with no negative consequences), 14 stops DR, ProRes RAW internal, VFR in 2k and 4k up to 60p without compromise, even a 4" screen that was actually high res and super bright, and access to a more pure image (options to fully disable the extra processing) would be AMAZING. Ok ok, add an electronic VND and that would be the cherry on top.

 

[joe12south]

Sometime it seems as if the engineers on the GHx team just have a different image preference, and I understand how this could sell for mass appeal out of the box, but when pursuing the pro market, it would be nice if they had options to let us get to that RAW image - especially if the only real secret sauce on BMD is sending out a raw signal from the sensor. I think a lot of people would be very happy with a BMD level image from a 2x as expensive Panasonic body, because of everything else these cameras offer.

How a RAW file is processed can make a huge difference in quality. Just look at RED's most recent IPP2 "color science" as a great example. You can apply it to 10 year old RAW footage and get meaningful improvement. Black Magic has specific color science that they've been steadily improving, now at v4 with the new camera. One of the reasons they have stated they are reluctant to adopt ProRes RAW is it is currently unclear how they would implement their particular color science.

 

[joe12south]

Unless Panasonic GH5 / GH5s sales tank (which I don't see happening any time soon), I would expect Panasonic to focus on what they will bring to the table with the GH6. My foolish guess is that the GH6 will expand dynamic range beyond the 12 F-stop V-Log L limit (maybe we will finally have the full Varicam V-Log profile in the GH6 body, with 13+ stops of dynamic range), it will have internal 4K 10-bit 60p recording, and if we are lucky GH5s low-light performance combined with full 5-axis IBIS. I wouldn't mind if they kept the GH5 and GH5s cameras, and made the GH6 a $3,000+ camera, because I am happy to pay for higher end features. Better camera choices are always good.

I think that the BMPCC 4K is going to put a serious dent into GH5s sales. (Notice I said "S") One only needs to look at pre-sales on B&H and the interest on various forums to see this is already happening.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Not the GH4 but you can see in this video some of the potential differences of moire between the GH5 and GH5S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq0ll2isFWQ

Likely in large part due to an OLPF and a 1:1 sensor much like the GH4 has.

 

[TheDingo]

I think that the BMPCC 4K is going to put a serious dent into GH5s sales. (Notice I said "S") One only needs to look at pre-sales on B&H and the interest on various forums to see this is already happening.

Currently the top camera listed on the B&H Photo mirrorless camera best sellers list is the Panasonic GH5s.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I think that the BMPCC 4K is going to put a serious dent into GH5s sales. (Notice I said "S") One only needs to look at pre-sales on B&H and the interest on various forums to see this is already happening.

I honestly agree with you when it comes to filmmakers. I think where we tend to differ is just how many people buying these cameras are filmmakers vs videographers? I still view the GH5S as more of the ultimate videographer camera with great cinema features and not so much a cinema camera. It can take the place of a cinema camera but Panasonic even markets the GH5S as more of a videography camera.

I think from the perspective of a video production company doing a wide range of corporate, product, and event gigs the GH5S could still make sense to those kind of users.

For a filmmaker however they really should consider the Pocket 4k.

Personally I'm more interested in getting a GH5S and a Pocket 4k due to the similar sensors. The processing and look will be different but if I'm shooting a 2 camera project I want the two cameras to have a similar ISO range to work with. I can take for leave the IBIS thing. Never used it in the past and while it would be cool to have I have oodles of solutions to keep my camera sturdy. So from my perspective where I love m43 but wish it had a bit more sensitivity I would only choose the GH5S and Pocket at this point going forward. I always felt it was silly and a waste to have the extra stills resolution on a camera meant for video.

 

[NorBro]

Currently the top camera listed on the B&H Photo mirrorless camera best sellers list is the Panasonic GH5s.

Actually, it's the a7III followed by the a7RIII and then the GH5S.

The BMPCC 4K isn't on the list because it's not a part of that mirrorless group (at least according to B&H).

On the 'Best Sellers' list for cinema cameras, it's #1 followed by the GH5S and GH5 - #2 and #3 - which are on both lists (mirrorless and cinema cameras).

 

[TheDingo]

Actually, it's the a7III followed by the a7RIII and then the GH5S.

The two Sony spots ( A7III and A7RIII ) that you are referring to are PAID feature spots that get inserted into the top of the page after the page loads. You will notice that the Panasonic GH5s is the first camera on the list when the page opens, but a moment later you may see the PAID feature spots that Sony has paid for.

This is what I see when I click on the B&H Mirrorless Camera section: B&H Photo Mirrorless Cameras Section

 

[NorBro]

They aren't paid feature spots.

When I click that link and then click 'Best Sellers' the order changes...a7III still on top. I'm not sure what you're seeing.

 

[NorBro]

P.S. Maybe in Canada the numbers are different...we very well could be seeing different things.

 

[TheDingo]

They aren't paid feature spots.

When I click that link and then click 'Best Sellers' the order changes...a7III still on top. I'm not sure what you're seeing.

You've got BODY ONLY selected. The link I provided is from the B&H page where you choose the type of camera you want to buy, in this case it's mirrorless.

I've made sure I cleared my browser cache and tried two different web browsers, and both browsers show the GH5s as the top spot.

Try un-selecting BODY ONLY and see if the results change.

 

[NorBro]

No. No change...body only doesn't make a difference because it applies to the Panasonics too.

The only difference without body only selected is the a7III with the 28-70mm gets inserted between the a7III and a7RIII at #2 pushing the a7RIII to #3 and GH5S to #4.

You need to click a drop-down item in the list to refresh the list. Because if you just click mirrorless cameras, it will default to the GH5S being on top. But then the order refreshes when you click "Best Sellers" or "Top Rated", etc.

 

[TheDingo]

Because if you just click mirrorless cameras, it will default to the GH5S being on top.

That's kind of odd ? ...If it isn't supposed to be there.