The problem I have here is that you seem to be using this as a call to halt progress.
We want more dynamic range from our cameras. How is that not a good thing? How does that hurt anyone?
GH4 GH5: Seems they haven´t thought about DR at all. Awful DR?
- Thread starter daktulus
- Start date
The problem I have here is that you seem to be using this as a call to halt progress.
We want more dynamic range from our cameras. How is that not a good thing? How does that hurt anyone?
That's the crux of it.
My issue is that there seem to be folks taking the view that we shouldn't be bugging Panny about it for future cameras. There's a contingent seemingly suggesting that what we have in the GH5 is good enough and we should never want anything better.
That kind of viewpoint, that kind of negativity, is just not cool.
You gotta learn to edit posts and multi-quote Jim.
But there's a couple things going on. People are happy with the GH5 and excited, and are pointing out that there's more to making a good image than X number stops of dynamic range. Then there are others acting like 12 is completely unacceptable and it completely ruins the camera and Panasonic hasn't thought about DR at all and how dare they? The truth is there are many tradeoffs and balances going on, and Panasonic has been very frank and forthright with the DR of the GH5. Would more DR be nice? Sure, but that doesn't negate the other numerous and major improvements the camera is giving us over the GH4, and indeed other competing cameras. Would more DR be possible in the GH5 while retaining the existing features? Probably not, there would be some sacrifices and tradeoffs. If DR is your end all feature, you're probably looking at the wrong camera eco system.
But there's a couple things going on. People are happy with the GH5 and excited, and are pointing out that there's more to making a good image than X number stops of dynamic range. Then there are others acting like 12 is completely unacceptable and it completely ruins the camera and Panasonic hasn't thought about DR at all and how dare they? The truth is there are many tradeoffs and balances going on, and Panasonic has been very frank and forthright with the DR of the GH5. Would more DR be nice? Sure, but that doesn't negate the other numerous and major improvements the camera is giving us over the GH4, and indeed other competing cameras. Would more DR be possible in the GH5 while retaining the existing features? Probably not, there would be some sacrifices and tradeoffs. If DR is your end all feature, you're probably looking at the wrong camera eco system.
But having more DR costs a lot more money. Would you buy this if it had 13 stops and cost $1000usd more per unit? At that price, there are other cameras that would probably get a person's money.
Now if they ever perfect the Fuji/Panasonic organic sensor tech. you will likely see that huge jump in DR put inside this very camera and probably inside an APS-C camera with Fuji. Not sure they are going to be able to increase the DR too much more with this little "standard" CMOS sensor, unless they go back to 12mp like suggested in a previous post. Maybe they will make a special GH5LL (Low Light) that offers bigger photosites for better low light and better DR. It would be a "niche" video "only" camera, and that may mean more cost per unit (fewer units produced). Would you buy a $3000usd, 12mp, low light/high DR camera in this form factor?
Now if they ever perfect the Fuji/Panasonic organic sensor tech. you will likely see that huge jump in DR put inside this very camera and probably inside an APS-C camera with Fuji. Not sure they are going to be able to increase the DR too much more with this little "standard" CMOS sensor, unless they go back to 12mp like suggested in a previous post. Maybe they will make a special GH5LL (Low Light) that offers bigger photosites for better low light and better DR. It would be a "niche" video "only" camera, and that may mean more cost per unit (fewer units produced). Would you buy a $3000usd, 12mp, low light/high DR camera in this form factor?
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
Just curious what other camera would you buy for 1K more that gives you everything the GH5 does?
joe12south
Veteran
The GH series is, by definition, a hybrid system. A lower res camera isn't going to happen. In fact, Panasonic has publicly stated that they're pushing towards 8K.
There is no camera within $1,000 with a comparable feature set. In terms of a reasonably priced 4K camera with materially better DR, I think the Ursa Mini 4.6K would be my next choice, but that's a completely different form factor, and would require me to also buy a new stills camera.
I would definitely pay $1K more for true 14-stops of DR in a GH-series body.
I was looking for a UHD 60P video camera with better performance than my Sony FDR-AX1 and before I ordered the GH5 I also looked at the Ursa 4.6k and decided that by the time I bought lenses, batteries to last 4 hours, memory cards to go for over 3 hours it was a very expensive camera. Coming close to 3 GH5`s sharing lenses !!!
David W. Jones
Veteran
While I have to confess that like just about everyone, sure I want more dynamic range from my acquisition device. But at the same time, I fail to see the firestorm of criticism calling the DR of the new GH5 awful. When did say 12.4 stops in a $2K camera become awful? Maybe its just because I'm an old guy who has worked with a s#itload of cameras over the years, that it has been hammered into my head. IT'S NOT THE CAMERA! If it was the camera, then movies shot with a 7-stop mini-DV camera would not have made $85million at the box-office. Or videos posted on youtube shot with a POS cameras would not have 845,881,651 views.
Posted by a guy with a true 4K 14-stop sensor camera, who can turn out some of the most utter rubbish with it if I don't control the lighting ratio and dynamic range of the scene.
All the best!
Dave
Posted by a guy with a true 4K 14-stop sensor camera, who can turn out some of the most utter rubbish with it if I don't control the lighting ratio and dynamic range of the scene.
All the best!
Dave
Thomas Smet
Veteran
When have I ever said I didn't want more DR? My entire point is we are now 17 pages deep in a discussion beating a poor dead horse into a pulp. We are now just going in circles and what exactly will come out of this discussion? Absolutely nothing. Nothing you can say will change what DR the GH4 or GH5 has. Its done put a fork in it. I just fail to see the point of harping on the same issues over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Every person on this forum and around the world wants more DR and would gladly welcome more DR. That has never been our argument. Our entire argument is to deal with and use the tool for what it is because none of us can change it at this point. Panasonic sacrificed DR to improve areas where other cameras fall flat. Everything in a camera is a compromise and a complex balance act. Panasonic chose the direction they did and for some people that was the right choice and for others not so much. Nobody can really change that.
Having 17 pages of discussions is not going to magically make the camera suddenly have 14 stops of DR. You can wish it all you want but the goose is already cooked. You are not convincing anybody here that they should want more DR. Well duh no kidding we want more. Some of us just choose to make use of what we currently have and do something more productive with our lives than just complaining all the time.
You want more DR then start flooding Panasonic with that request now for the GH6. figure out who to contact and get your friends to contact them with the same request. This forum doesn't mean squat to Panasonic and while they may occasionally take a peak at it they are not going to shift through 17 pages of our obsessive back and forth arguing about the subject to filter out the useful requests.
I understand you want more DR. So do I. I'm sure every person that cares about cameras wants that as well. What I refuse to do however is get hung up on it like it is some kind of crutch or excuse to do any work or actually use the camera. Don't like it then please move on. I know you have already moved on to BMD so why exactly do you keep coming back to poke the bear?
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yes bug Panasonic about it, not us. Your negativity towards the camera is what isn't cool.
joe12south
Veteran
GH5 allows for some control of the roll-off. I'm anxious to try it out myself.
Every camera is a compromise, so you weigh the pros and cons for each one when trying to figure out what is the best one for the projects you want to shoot.
Right now Sony ILC cameras have the best DR at 13+ F-stops. So from a DR perspective these Sony cameras are at the top of the heap.
But then you have to live with the Sony compromises...
- Cameras that overheat when shooting 4K video for more than 1 hour
- 8-bit 4:2:0 internal recording
- Sony LOG color ( which can be great, but also harder to work with than other cameras )
- Batteries that die after 1 hour of shooting
- 5-axis stabilization that does not seem to work as well as the Olympus or Panasonic equivalents
Switching to the GH5 camera I have to give up 1 - 1.5 F-stops of DR compared to Sony ILC cameras, but then I won't have to deal with the same Sony compromises, which to me is a fair trade because I can definitely live with a camera that shoots 12 F-stops of DR.
Pansonic DR will get better, but I think it's directly tied to new sensor tech, which could still be several years away from becoming reality.
filmguy123
Veteran
Agreed. I want a GHx with more DR but 12 stops isn't bad. Realistically the Sony A7S series has that, even though they claim 14 DXOmark doesn't seem to agree. They only put the raw sensor output a HALF STOP above GH4 (that is: "RAW" sensor output).
If the GH5 hits a "REAL" 12-stops (which it very well could thanks to the robust codec, much lower noise, and better vlog encoding) that is quite good. Better than I think some people realize. Especially if you compare apples to apples with other camera.
Of course this all remains to be seen, but some people seem to be hearing "same DR as GH4" and picturing the higher noise floor 8bit 420 DR in non vlog. The other camera changes will likely have a large impact on perceived DR.
But, we'll see soon enough!
Barry_Green
Moderator
amen!
Highlight roll off is just the way the sensor goes from the highlights or even clipped to lesser exposed bits. Alexa is butter smooth, like film. The later Reds also have beautiful roll offs.
If you check page 35 from this 83 page Panasonic PowerPoint document, they talk about a new "Like 709" gamma curve and also new tools to give you more control over the gamma "knee". These should help to preserve highlight detail when used properly.
joe12south
Veteran
And allow us some control to craft the roll-off in a manner we find pleasing. Theoretically if you want a harder cut-off, more like video, you can; if you want a more gradual curve-off, more like film or Arri, you can. This won't yield any more DR, just change the response.
One of the other new features, how color is processed in 3D, is likely to also make the color up there more accurate, yielding a perceived improvement in highlight response.
All in all, the usable dynamic range of the GH5 should be a material improvement over the GH4.
joe12south
Veteran
Right. I didn't mean to imply anything else. The GH5 offers better control of this roll-off than the GH5.
GH2 has too nervous auto exposure. GH3 and GH4 are very good. The auto exposure reacts slowly and the adjustment is very smooth in A and auto iso. The AWB also changes quite smoothly and slowly, usually not at all during a clip.
The good improvement for auto exposure/AWB would be semi-auto. Things would adjust when half pressing and the stays unchanges during a clip. We could get the best of auto and manual. Of course we must see the exposure numbers.