GH4 GH5: Seems they haven´t thought about DR at all. Awful DR?

[daktulus]

I want Panasonic to be successfull, because I have invested in their system. So far many have stated they don´t care so much for more pixels, but want more DR. Other companies have understood this years ago, so I hope Panasonic understands this too.

What is important businesswise is that the customer doesn´t see a difference between GHx and 35mm. Because that is what the eye perceives as high quality. And I do not want to carry more lights etc because this adds cost. To get there we do not need more pixels or gimmicks, but more DR, nicer skintones and better contrast handling (and it is possible, because even with the old HVX200 I get nicer colors). DR should be the main focus of development.

Other companies do understand this and I see it as my responsibility to inform the company I invested in to go into the right direction. If you don´t do this your investment goes down the toilet. So hopefully many write Panasonic that DR is wanted.
Otherwise I wouldn´t recommend buying Panasonic stocks

 

[combatentropy]

Important thing to remember about a listed DR spec is it is up to the interpretation of the manufacturer as to how it was measured.

If only they followed the standard (ISO 15739-2003)

 

[TheDingo]

What is important business-wise is that the customer doesn´t see a difference between GHx and 35mm.

For large print still photos the Full Frame and Medium-format cameras are always going to rule. ( for digital media platforms the GHx cameras should easily hold their own )

Because that is what the eye perceives as high quality

I would disagree here.

An image with 14 F-stops of DR that is badly composed, slightly out of focus, with an odd color cast is never going to beat out an image with 12 F-stops of DR that is properly composed, in focus, with beautiful color.

Too many people have this odd fixation that maximum DR beats everything, even if other aspects of the image are not well controlled.

Yes all things being equal it would be nice to have more DR, but I am happy to give up 1 - 1.5 F-stops of DR to get a camera with 12 F-stops of DR that will allow me to create smooth stabilized handheld tracking shots, with great color, that are in focus, with unlimited shooting time, a camera that NEVER overheats no matter how long you shoot with it, batteries that last 3+ hours each, and with a lot more color and contrast grading control in post.

When the 400 Mbps data-rate arrives with the Summer firmware update, I suspect I will be able to get images that come close to what an external recorder produces, all at 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 color with the SAME rolling shutter performance as the Sony FS7 or Canon C300 cine cameras.

To me that's a great trade to get a killer work-horse production camera.

 

[filmguy123]

An image with 14 F-stops of DR that is badly composed, slightly out of focus, with an odd color cast is never going to beat out an image with 12 F-stops of DR that is properly composed, in focus, with beautiful color.

Well no kidding... but I am pretty sure no one was making that point

Too many people have this odd fixation that maximum DR beats everything, even if other aspects of the image are not well controlled.

DR is one of the absolute most important things to a sensor today. Apple got this for years before other mobile manufactures caught on. While the megapixel race raged on, they stood their ground at 5 and then 8 megapixel until the tech was ready, explaining in every one of their keynotes why they opted for larger photosites. And they were right.

I am happy to give up 1 - 1.5 F-stops of DR to get a camera with 12 F-stops of DR that will allow me to create smooth stabilized handheld tracking shots, with great color, that are in focus, with unlimited shooting time, a camera that NEVER overheats no matter how long you shoot with it, batteries that last 3+ hours each, and with a lot more color and contrast grading control in post.

Me too. I've pre-ordered a GH5. The camera is a beast and the only camera I could actually stand working with.

 

[TheDingo]

DR is one of the absolute most important things to a sensor today.

Depends on what you shoot and how you light...

I would say that rolling-shutter performance is also one of the most important things if you film subjects with a lot of movement.

I would also say that having better color formats like 10-bit 4:2:2 are also one of the most important things, to be able to control and correct the color of the images you produce.

I've pre-ordered a GH5. The camera is a beast and the only camera I could actually stand working with.

The GH4 became a big deal once people figured out how to produce a great image with it. ( it took a while to figure out how to get rid of the horrible GH4 over-sharpened video look )

I think the GH5 is going to be a monster once the firmware updates arrive and people have mastered how to use this camera.

 

[filmguy123]

of course - why I said one of! All of those things are very fair to desire. But to the point of an actual image straight off camera DR is a massive tell. And given that Panasonic heavily pitches the camera to the people that need it most, it would seem in their interest. From the opening page of their GH5 PDF:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzXpNy2MdkE6X3RxLTh1MksxTXM/view

Nature, event, documentary, weddings, field - because they are pitching the mobility. DR is essential to all those.

Regardless, you're totally right, the GH5 is a monster. And I've had great results with the GH4. The IQ on GH5 will only be better. Perhaps more importantly, the tool itself that helps me acquire great images has been so vastly improved I'm just thrilled to shoot with it. It's the only camera really suited to OMB field work, when mobility and flexibility is required. I can do stuff on the GHx series I could never get away with on AF100, and it's vastly less tiring to use, especially when trying to fly it.

 

[Thomas Smet]

of course - why I said one of! All of those things are very fair to desire. But to the point of an actual image straight off camera DR is a massive tell. And given that Panasonic heavily pitches the camera to the people that need it most, it would seem in their interest. From the opening page of their GH5 PDF:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzXpNy2MdkE6X3RxLTh1MksxTXM/view

Nature, event, documentary, weddings, field - because they are pitching the mobility. DR is essential to all those.

Regardless, you're totally right, the GH5 is a monster. And I've had great results with the GH4. The IQ on GH5 will only be better. Perhaps more importantly, the tool itself that helps me acquire great images has been so vastly improved I'm just thrilled to shoot with it. It's the only camera really suited to OMB field work, when mobility and flexibility is required. I can do stuff on the GHx series I could never get away with on AF100, and it's vastly less tiring to use, especially when trying to fly it.

See I don't agree with that at all. A lot of broadcast TV shows shot outdoors and in all sorts of odd situations use video cameras which likely don't even get 12 stops. A lot of nature shows are shot on those traditional video cameras and there are still plenty of weddings shot with traditional video cameras. DR is a new buzzword and we all get excited by the prospect of it but the reality is it is fairly new and a lot of high end productions shot in the same kind of natural environments you are talking about have been shot with 10 stop and 12 stop cameras for a very long time.

I'm not trying to play down the importance of DR at all because I agree it is very nice to have but I think we are losing a bit of perspective of what 12 stops actually means to the stuff we watch on TV or what tens of thousands of video professionals shoot all the time while we sit here and say 12 stops isn't enough. We need to not get so fixated on printed values as just numbers and put into perspective what people of all backgrounds have achieved with cameras that do not have 14 or 16 stops of DR.

In the right hands a 10 stop camera can produce stunning TV shows. I'm also not talking about perfectly controlled lighting situations. I'm talking about a reality TV show like Survivor where they are shooting in high contrast sunlight and messed up situations. There is more professional broadcast grade content out there shot with video cameras that only get at best 10 stops of DR than what you realize.

The other thing we need to keep into perspective is we are the only nerds on the planet that care about this stuff. 99% of the population does not notice things like DR the way we do. They may notice the extreme levels like 6 stops compared to 14 stops but again like we have been saying for days now, 12 stops is not an extreme level of low DR. 10 isn't even horrible to the eyes of the average viewer and many broadcast professionals.

 

[joe12south]

See I don't agree with that at all. A lot of broadcast TV shows shot outdoors and in all sorts of odd situations use video cameras which likely don't even get 12 stops.

And video cameras usually play with the exposure dynamically throughout the shot to compensate. But, as creatives, we want to be able to control exposures in those scenarios much like we can on set. That's why wide DR at capture time is so important. It's a better creative tool.

Interestingly, the GH5 paired with certain lenses will have the ability to dynamically adjust the exposure very smoothly as the scene changes. I for one am curious as to how this old school video camera feature will combine with other features to possibly give some of the benefits of more perceived DR. If it works as well as the demo, then it's something I might use for live events.

 

[Vesku]

Interestingly, the GH5 paired with certain lenses will have the ability to dynamically adjust the exposure very smoothly as the scene changes. I for one am curious as to how this old school video camera feature will combine with other features to possibly give some of the benefits of more perceived DR. If it works as well as the demo, then it's something I might use for live events.

GH4 already adjusts video exposure very smoothly and nicely when using aperture priority or/and auto iso. the shutter priority is a problem because current Pana lenses cant adjust aperture smoothly.

The issue with GH4 auto exposure as we all know is the lack of exposure information showed.

 

[joe12south]

GH4 already adjusts video exposure very smoothly and nicely when using aperture priority or/and auto iso. the shutter priority is a problem because current Pana lenses cant adjust aperture smoothly.

I'm not a fan of how the GH4 does it - it looks like most camcorders - and I don't feel like I can use it on paid work. Have you seen the GH5 sample from Panasonic? Much improved.

The issue with GH4 auto exposure as we all know is the lack of exposure information showed.

Ha! I should have known I was walking into your trap with that one. You remain the only person who really wants this.

 

[TheDingo]

is a problem because current Pana lenses cant adjust aperture smoothly

This is now fixed with the latest generation of Lumix lenses that do have apertures that smoothly adjust from one F-stop to another. ( would be nice to know which lenses have this feature )

 

[Vesku]

I'm not a fan of how the GH4 does it - it looks like most camcorders - and I don't feel like I can use it on paid work. Have you seen the GH5 sample from Panasonic? Much improved.

What sample? How improved? What is exactly wrong with GH4 auto exposure?

 

[joe12south]

What sample? How improved? What is exactly wrong with GH4 auto exposure?

If I recall correctly, it is in Panasonic's official release video. Maybe someone can correct me if it's actually elsewhere. (I know I saw it on release day, didn't get much attention.)

When the GH4 adjusts exposure while recording in video mode, the move is quite evident and mechanical looking (linear). If you allow it to adjust aperture, too, then it can appear *really* clunky. It looks like the GH5 eases in/out of the move so it appears more like a human making the adjustment. And, again, if I recall correctly, aperture adjustments are also much smoother with certain lenses.

 

[Jim Simon]

Well, the simple answer would then be to not buy a GH5 because they failed to give it X stops more than a GH4.

It just may come to that.

 

[aldolega]

Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

everything is amazing, and nobody is happy.

qftmft

 

[Jim Simon]

An image with 14 F-stops of DR that is badly composed, slightly out of focus, with an odd color cast is never going to beat out an image with 12 F-stops of DR that is properly composed, in focus, with beautiful color.

Here's where that argument fails to convince.

The composition, focus and color are within our control at all times.

Dynamic Range is squarely in the control of the camera company.

So yes, a badly focused shot with high DR is not as good as proper focus with less DR. No freakin' duh! What we're talking about here is both shots being properly composed, in focus and with good colors. Under those conditions, the higher DR shot will look better.

 

[Jim Simon]

I am happy to give up 1 - 1.5 F-stops of DR to get a camera with 12 F-stops of DR that will allow me to create smooth stabilized handheld tracking shots, with great color, that are in focus, with unlimited shooting time, a camera that NEVER overheats no matter how long you shoot with it, batteries that last 3+ hours each, and with a lot more color and contrast grading control in post.

Here again you fail to convince, assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that higher DR would exclude all the things you like.

 

[-griffy-]

This camera has 12 stops of DR. Deal with it or don't buy it, and bug Panasonic for more with the GH6.

 

[philiplipetz]

This camera has 12 stops of DR. Deal with it or don't buy it, and bug Panasonic for more with the GH6.

WEll, Panasonic will be developing the GH6 sensor in house. Sony has contacts tha restrict what you can do with a s snoring, and they would only sell Panasonic a sensor based on last generation technology.