GH4 GH5: Seems they haven´t thought about DR at all. Awful DR?

If you want increased dynamic range then start requesting it now for the GH6. Don't wait until the camera is physically built and in the hands of testers. That is way too late.

I also do not agree with the statement that Panasonic listened to the wrong people and that the new features are gimmicky in some way.

10bit 4:2:2 is a massive huge feature for any camera. For those of us using external recorders not a huge deal but it is massive for everybody else. Stabilization is huge. 4k 60p. No over heating. Good luck finding another camera that can do all of this for $2,000.00.

I would also love more DR but 12 stops is not bad and to think it is is using that as an excuse. The original RED ONE camera had 12 stops of dynamic range and was used on a lot of productions. 12 is not a bad amount to have, especially if it is cleaner and more stable 12 stops compared to the GH4.

The DR we are seeing also still widely depends on the profiles used. So far it looks like only one person managed to get V-log on their test GH5 camera and his stuff looks great. Everything else has been the more contrasty baked in profiles that will never have 12 stops of DR. You need to look for the V-log or maybe the Hybrid Gamma Log stuff from the GH5 to really judge DR.
 
Isn't the C100/ C300 about 12.5 stops? I think it is. Those cameras are more than twice the amount of this little cam and can do a fraction of what this can do. Don't get me wrong...I am a C100/300 owner and love those cameras. Just talking DR....the C100/C300 did not feel like they were inferior in the DR category and the GH5 will most likely be on par with them.

I have never owned a GH line camera...but the GH5 does look like a great little camera...especially to what I was shooting on back in 2005. Its lightyears ahead of where we came from just 10-12 years ago for a fraction of the cost.
 
ReelWorksMedia said:
Isn't the C100/ C300 about 12.5 stops?
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The original Mark 1 cameras are rated for 12 F-stops of DR when using their LOG profile. The new C300 Mark 2 is rated for 15 F-stops of DR when using it's LOG profile.

ReelWorksMedia said:
Those cameras are more than twice the amount of this little cam and can do a fraction of what this can do.
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The C100 Mark 1 currently starts at $2,500 US at B&H Photo. Add on the GH5 XLR adapter and V-log profile and the price is essentially the same, but it's an apples and oranges comparison. Both cameras have their good and bad points.
 
daktulus said:
I posted this hoping there would be a way to get the word out to Panasonic, so they might improve DR before the final release.
Maybe it´s to late, but maybe if many people want wide DR, Panasonic listens.

For me all of the gimmicks are not as important as good picture quality. DR and skintone are important.
Already owning an external recorder I was mainly hoping for wide DR.
I think Panasonic listened to the wrong people developing the GH5. Wide DR is one of the biggest selling points these days, it is also the key to high quality pictures.
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The absolute dynamic range is mostly a function of the sensor design, and that's not going to change on the GH5 from firmware to firmware (though small improvements are possible.) There are some very exciting new sensor technologies in the pipeline (look at Panasonic's patents) but those are destined for the GH6, at best.

Big improvements to processing and countless general usability improvements are not gimmicks. The combined value of a litany of small improvements add up to a much better camera. I'm actually just as excited about the move from the GH4 > GH5 than I was for the move from the GH3 > GH4.

All that said, I do believe that all camera manufacturers do need to make reaching 14 usable stops of DR a baseline, and 16 the real goal. Until they do, it will remain the most glaring weakness in digital imaging compared to what the human visual system is capable of resolving.
 
joe12south said:
I do believe that all camera manufacturers do need to make reaching 14 usable stops of DR a baseline, and 16 the real goal. Until they do, it will remain the most glaring weakness in digital imaging compared to what the human visual system is capable of resolving.
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Hmmm... Apparently the human eye can only see a dynamic range of 10 F-stops in bright light, but this extends to 20 F-stops of non-color vision in dim light.

Notes by Dr. Optoglass: Dynamic Range of the Human Eye

Personally I think we are spoiled by the current dynamic range of digital cameras. I remember back in the 80's and 90's when most professional photographers shooting for advertisements shot transparency film to achieve the best possible magazine, poster, billboard reproduction... And transparency film generally had a dynamic range of 7 to 8 F-stops so you learned to properly light your sets and subjects to produce a great image within this 7 to 8 F-stop range. It was a skill that required a lot of practice, but if you stuck at it you could eventually master how to light for transparency film.

Eventually we will have sensors with 20 F-stops of dynamic range, but I find it a bit crazy if people can't produce a good shot ( still or video ) given how good digital cameras are right now.
 
TheDingo said:
looks WAY better to me than anything I've seen come out of the GH4 without an external recorder.
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There's the rub. Given the now internal 10 bit 4:2:2 option, GH5 footage should only be compared to GH4 with an external recorder for this test.

Does the GH5 have better DR than the GH4/Atomos combo? That's the real test here, looking at the sensor's capabilities, not the codec's.
 
Jim Simon said:
There's the rub. Given the now internal 10 bit 4:2:2 option, GH5 footage should only be compared to GH4 with an external recorder for this test.

Does the GH5 have better DR than the GH4/Atomos combo? That's the real test here, looking at the sensor's capabilities, not the codec's.
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It's been pointed out earlier that the GH5 is stated and expected to only be marginally better in DR than the GH4 in terms of sensor readout. Other things will help the actual net result to be better (internal processing, lower noise, etc.) - not just the better internal codec.

I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't wish Panasonic announced the GH5 with 14 stops DR. I'm in that camp. But on the very pragmatic side, it really is a big deal to have a practical 12-stops DR all internal when comparing to the GH4. For one, because the vast majority of footage that most people have seen or been working with on GH4 were producing around 10.5 stops. I realize this is less exciting if you own and work with vlog 10b 422 external recorder and dialed in correctly, but it's worth noting when people talk GH4 comparisons. And yes, it does appear that the actual DR and effective net result is an improvement on GH5 (albiet small).

But for many people like myself who prioritize mirrorless for workflow, size, weight, etc. - it's almost a non starter to kit out a GH4 in a bulky rig. Hence, 12-stops DR on my GH4 has been an impossible possibility for my workflow and needs for sometime. If I wanted a rig as bulky as a GH4 with external recorder, I'd just get a used FS7 for not much more.
 
daktulus said:
DR and skintone are important.
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Jim Simon said:
Here ya go. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...c_design_blackmagic_pocket_cinema_camera.html
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BMPCC vs. Man with Charts

As for dynamic range, saying the BMPCC is a 13 stop camera is a bit of a stretch. I’m seeing 12 stops at 800ASA, and 12.5-13 stops at 1600ASA depending on what you consider useable. I’m going to say it has a bit less usable DR than the Canon C300 / C100 due to a noisier image particularly at 1600ASA which makes shadow detail less recoverable on the BMPCC.
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combatentropy said:
More is better, but most scenes have less than 12. I hope this makes you feel better about the situation: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/dynamicrange/. And that's not a controlled studio situation. That's a white stuffed animal in direct sunlight and a black table in the shade: 11 stops.
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I find that test shot to be a little too "ideal". Anyone who has shot someone in real shade on a sunny day knows how hard it is too not have a blown-out sky. (graduated ND's, anyone?)

Our eyes adjust dynamically, a camera can't. Therefore the sensor needs to be able cover more range in one exposure. Just like 8K or so hits the visual max in terms of spacial resolution, and 120fps or so hits the max for temporal resolution, 16 stops of DR is around the upper max for contrast resolution in one scene. Once cameras hit these "magic" numbers, we can all stop bitching about specs and start blaming ourselves. ;-)
 
TheDingo said:
I remember back in the 80's and 90's when most professional photographers shooting for advertisements shot transparency film to achieve the best possible magazine, poster, billboard reproduction... And transparency film generally had a dynamic range of 7 to 8 F-stops so you learned to properly light your sets and subjects to produce a great image within this 7 to 8 F-stop range.
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You have to factor that CMYK printing has crappy DR, and standard REC601 has crappy DR. When the output medium is the limit, the input medium can impose greater limits. REC709 was an incremental improvement, but HDR is going to blow the lid off. Thus our capture tools need to keep pace.
 
Jim Simon said:
There's the rub. Given the now internal 10 bit 4:2:2 option, GH5 footage should only be compared to GH4 with an external recorder for this test.

Does the GH5 have better DR than the GH4/Atomos combo? That's the real test here, looking at the sensor's capabilities, not the codec's.
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No way!

Are you testing the camera or the recorder? Test the camera against it's predecessor to determine the image quality gain. Then test the delta from the GH5 alone vs. GH5 with a recorder to see what's left on the table.
 
I would be curious to know how the 12-stops DR on the GH5 fair across the ISO range. Depending on internal processing, it's a possibility it fairs better than some other cameras... all speculation of course, but it would be great to see a consistent 12 stops from ISO 200-1600 rather than a drop off as ISO goes up.

Regarding old photography and lower DR, that's all well and good, but many of us work in film for, you know, work. Clients don't care if your images have more DR than the 70s and 80s. They care how it compares to your competition. IQ standards have gone up.

14 seems to be the sweet spot, anything more is icing.

For all the GH5 brings to table, I can work with 12 stops as long as its actually 12 stops, and doesn't drop off dramatically as ISO increases. Until a next generation m43 sensor with backlit tech, HDRx processing, etc. is brought to the table (fingers crossed for 2020 GH6) this will do. However, I will say that seeing the potential in future sensor technology and computing processing power to compensate for smaller sensors (which should be further helped along by the mobile market), the future of M43 looks bright. It will never be full frame, but with tech and processing advances I think it's very safe to assume we will see a solid 14+ stops of DR through entire ISO range and even better lowlight in future iterations. With fast native M43 glass and a huge selection of focal ranges, including wide, the format's future looks strong.

Until then GH5 is a noteworthy step forward in IQ and more so workflow. I think Dual IS, super fast auto focus and tracking for gimbal, internal 10b422, vlog with internal LUT monitoring, 180fp with VFR settings to dial exact look, etc. will net more important net results in quality content than one extra stop of DR.
 
Most consumer TV's can handle 6 max. New Samsung line aims for 10. Their top of the line model claims even higher brightness output (2,000 nits) but no on knows at what quality. And until the new Dynamic High Dynamic Range dynamically arrives, the most dynamite idea is fitting that 16-stop footage into an 8-10 stop range anyway.

Personally, I dial the brightness function down on my LED TV. That Tom Antos scene had 5 stops (and he still made his cousin look too hot ... the face I mean), according to Tom himself and that was with the key light dialed up too high.
 
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DLD said:
Most consumer TV's can handle 6 max. New Samsung line aims for 10. Their top of the line model claims even higher brightness output (2,000 nits) but no on knows at what quality. And until the new Dynamic High Dynamic Range dynamically arrives, the most dynamite idea is fitting that 16-stop footage into an 8-10 stop range anyway.

Personally, I dial the brightness function down on my LED TV. That Tom Antos scene had 5 stops (and he still made his cousin look too hot ... the face I mean), according to Tim himself and that was with the key light dialed up too high.
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None of that negates the benefits of being able to capture more latitude (like a sunny day) and then compress it into a natural looking 6-8 stops in post. One of the (many) reasons film capture looked better than video even on VHS.
 
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