Thomas Smet
Veteran
The GH4 should be able to do 4608 wide because it can capture stills that are 4608 wide. I think the 4608 is already the effective pixel area.
GH4 GH4 V-log?
- Thread starter Kindredmachine
- Start date
The GH4 should be able to do 4608 wide because it can capture stills that are 4608 wide. I think the 4608 is already the effective pixel area.
According to the B&H GH4 specs - 17.2 MPX sensor, with 16.05 MPX effective. Then it says that its max resolution is 4608 x 3456 ... which is 15.9.
This made me laugh my ass off because its about the same thing that would happen to me if I talk about vlog and tech camera stuff. Guaranteed no nookie!
Thomas Smet
Veteran
4608x3456 is 4x3 or 1.3333:1 and the largest still size that can be captured on the GH4. The GH2 used to have an adaptive sensor where a narrower image like 16x9 could be a bit wider due to the circle area of the sensor but the GH3 and GH4 no longer have that type of sensor. Basically 4608 is the widest portion of the sensor and 3456 is the tallest portion of the sensor. 16x9 taking the full width is 4608 x 2592 which is also the 16x9 still image mode for the GH4 so theoretically perfectly capable of doing so with a faster processor.
As much as I think anamorphic is not the best option on a sensor this small and with the horrible anamorphic optics out there at a decent price point if one could capture 3456 vertical pixels that basically puts you at 8k resolution. DCI standard for scope at 8k would have a height of 3432 and the GH4 has a height of 3456 or almost exactly the right amount of vertical pixels with a few pixels to spare.. This is the only time I might consider anamorphic practical on the GH4 in terms of gaining extra detail.
Based on this Panasonic could technically market the GH5 as an 8k camera as long as people use an anamorphic lens and the GH5 is capable of recording video from the full sensor area of 4608x3456. In fact for true DCI scope for 8k (which isn't a thing yet but could be soon) you only really need 4096x3432 for true 2x anamorphic scope at 8k. it is not unheard of for cameras to view anamorphic resolution this way. The Alexa is considered a higher resolution camera when shooting anamorphic since it can use its full 4x3 vertical height. The GH5 could be marketed as a 4k camera when shooting with spherical lenses or 8k when shooting anamorphic. Since Panasonic has already went down the anamorphic path it could definitely be a thing. I still think the limited anamorphic lens options are a major issue for the GH cameras right now but if Panasonic also made a native m43 anamorphic lens that would be huge. The made a 3D lens once and I think a solid performing anamorphic lens has a much larger potential market share then a silly 3D lens. Especially if the combo of native m43 anamorphic lenses and the GH5 could be marketed as the worlds first 8k camera under $3,000.00.
I'm not usually a fan of anamorphic on a camera like this but this would be a game changer for me.
I really hope the upcoming Veydra 2x 25mm can come in at $3,000. They said it will be $5,000 or less and they were hoping it would be much less. If it's over $3,000 I'll just go with the SLR Magic 2x and their rangefinder, which also produces stunning results. The Veydra anamorphic is expected to come out early 2016.
DVX 200 shoots its 16:9 4K in 12.9 MPX, which, I assume, is exactly 4608x2592, though it has a sensor with 20 MPX to offer the same crop in MFT as GH4. Looking at GX8, it's listed as 21.77 MPX total and 20.3 effective in 5184 x 3888 (20.015 MPX).
So, in 16:9, I guess they should be able to get 5184 x 2900 for a 15 MPX oversampled 4K (essentially the same as A7RII but at half the price). In 2.4, 5184 x 2160 or 11.197 MPX and, if one allows for the Bayer mask 20% reduction in resolution, 8.9 MPX. And that fits very neatly into an "actual" 4K.
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
This wins the internet ! Until we actually see the firmware in our cameras and tests ourselves what Vlog-L can and cannot do theres no point outsmarting each other on bits and assumed DR.
LochnessDigital
Active member
I don't understand your logic here. You're saying by putting a 2X anamorphic on, then scaling the image in post horizontally by 2X, you'll reach 8K.
You can already market the GH4 as an 8K camera by this logic. Just scale the whole image 200%!
You shouldn't scale an image up if you can help it, even when shooting anamorphic. The idea of shooting anamorphic was so that you can use the full 4 perf height of film, then squeeze it back down vertically so you shrink the noise and have the benefit of increased resolution density. The other option would be to shoot with the 2.39:1 center cropped out. That would only utilize about 2.5 perfs of the film's height.
In a digital world, it's the same concept if your sensor has extra height to spare, at least. If not, it's technically a loss in resolution. With the GH4 anamorphic mode being 3328x2496 (8.3 megapixels), you'd squeeze it down to 3328x1248 (8.3 MP squeezed into a 4.15 MP container). That'd leave you with a 2.66:1 image so you'd crop in the sides for 2.39:1, leaving you with 2982x1248 at this point, which would end up being 7.44 MP of information left before you render.
Actually it was announced at NAMM it would be available at the end of 2015, but I wouldn't expect that to be a reality. I've seen nothing but delays from them so far.
The initial 4 lens set was supposed to arrive January 2015 according to the Kickstarter campaign. A delay was announced in the middle of January stating they would be pushed to February because of manufacturing issues of the 25mm, and the 4 lens sets to be shipping by the 13th. On the 16th, they updated that by saying they would ship to all backers on the 23rd and 24th because they were intentionally holding back the 25mm and the 50mm. We knew about the 25mm, but the 50mm was news to us. On the 25th, I received my 4 lens set.
Similarly, the 12mm was supposed to be June 2015. On June 1st, this got pushed to July. July came and went without announcement. On August 12th, they pushed it to middle of September. On the 3rd, I received an email stating they were shipping the imperial scale 12mm on Friday, the 4th, so a little earlier than expected this time. But the 4th came and went with no shipment tracking information, so we'll see if it shows up for me tomorrow.
That said, this has nothing to do with the quality of the lenses themselves, which are great. I'm sure the anamorphic 25mm will be great too. I just wouldn't expect it so soon. These "shake up the industry" companies often bite off more than they can chew. They eventually deliver, but you've just gotta be patient.
Alvise Tedesco
Well-known member
Panny France, IIRC.
Illya Friedman
Well-known member
Hot Rod Cameras is working with Veydra on the 2x Anamorphics, and as of now I can confirm early 2016 for shipping. HRC has already committed to the first batch that roll off the assembly line.
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
no because in order to be 8k it would need 3432 vertical pixels which currently the GH4 cannot capture as video. The processor in the GH4 cannot currently output the entire effective sensor area for video which is why this would have to wait for the GH5.
This is how anamorphic has always worked even with 35mm film. The invention of anamorphic was to be able to get a much wider image from the same 35mm film area used for standard 4x3 movies. Anamorphic basically takes a squashed image by 2x and extends it back out so a 4x3 sensor (or film frame) can be extended into roughly 2.39:1 aspect ratio. Its how its always been done and many anamorphic movies to this day are created this way. So as long as the GH5 has a 4x3 sensor area with the vertical resolution enough for 8k video it can be marketed as a true anamorphic 8k camera because when the squashed captured image is stretched out to look normal it will be 8192x3432 (cropped slightly). Well it will likely have even more horizontal pixels since a 2x anamorphic adapter gets you a bit more than 2.39:1 ratio.
So scaling an entire image by 200% is not the same as anamorphic because you don't gain the vertical resolution advantages from the taller 4x3 sensor. The concept in image theory which is similar to the concept of interlaced video is that sacrificing in one direction but not both can still yield acceptable resolution. Scaling in both directions is just an upscale and nowhere near the benefits of actual anamorphic.
It was new, which is why I went and ordered from Panasonic directly yesterday (Panasonic claims shipment mid September). In addition to the ship date being new, you also cannot pre-order from B&H anymore, only get a notification when it would be available to order.
LochnessDigital
Active member
Basically what you've done is map an image into a 4576 x 3432 container. Each pixel is 1:1 (square). When you stretch that back out 200% in the horizontal direction, you've made every pixel a 1-pixel-tall by 2-pixel-wide rectangle. Yes, you have a 9152 x 3432 image after the de-squeeze, but there's only 15.7 megapixels of information in there, no matter which way you slice it. For comparison, a true 9152 x 3432 image would have 31.4 MP.
On film, when comparing the two formats, you're projecting more vertical information of the film in anamorphic into the same screen area as the 2.39:1 cropped frame. That's technically a vertical squeeze and that's where the vertical resolution advantage comes from.
Arri's own 2K Anamorphic image from an Alexa is 2048 x 1536 - By your logic Alexas have been 4K all along.
Blackmagic's URSA Mini specs call the 3072 x 2560 mode "3K Anamorphic" - By your logic they should call that camera a 6K camera.
The GH4's anamorphic mode is 3328 x 2496 - By your logic Panasonic is dropping the ball calling this camera 4K; clearly this is a 6K camera!
Red's approach to naming conventions is confusing in this regard. Since their resolution sizes are directly related to the imaging area on the sensor, they call 5120 x 2700 5K, but they also call 3296 x 2700 "5K Anamorphic," But even then, with your logic their 5K Anamorphic mode should actually be called 6.5K Anamorphic. You would think Red of all companies would jump on the opportunity to inflate their pixel count if this phenomenon were true.
Now, on the flip side of the argument, what you're doing is saving the vertical dimension from being oversampled down to a smaller resolution, at the expense of doubling the width of the frame and increasing the file sizes tremendously.
I'd rather downscale the vertical, shrinking noise and artifacts in the process while supersampling the vertical dimension instead of doing exactly the opposite.
Curnsie
Well-known member
I've just had confirmation that the V-log L update for UK GH4 owners is to be handled solely by Panasonic UK. I suspect from this link http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/camera-accessories/others/dmw-sfu1gu.html
I was told by one retailer that it will be available to order from the 12th September. Boy has Panasonic has made this process confusing in the UK!!
CustomerGH4
Well-known member
You think UK process is confusing, what about people in Eastern Europe and other European countries, I have no idea where should I order and if it will work.
I only know french an order for 50% of the money, but does anyone have more info on other countries?
I ordered it yesterday at the german panasonic shop website, costs 99,99 € plus 3 € shipping, shipping date is supposed to be September 23.
http://shop.panasonic.de/DMW-SFU1GU/DMW-SFU1GU,de_DE,pd.html