GH4 Gh4 Newbie needs help with shooting concert footage

N

nastybreakdown

New member
First I'd like to say hello to everyone since I'm new to the board. I've been shooting concerts for my blog for some time using a Panasonic ZS19 and it has worked out great for me because the quality has been awesome, but in the process of picking up bigger jobs, I felt the need to get bigger/better equipment to be taken more seriously by my peers. I've been reading things online and doing a bit of research for a while to make a jump to a pro/prosumer camera and was looking at the GH4, HC-X1000, and other cams, but decided to go with GH4 since I'm rather loyal to Panasonic.

Now that I've got this wonderful cam, I don't REALLY know what to do with it lol Going from a fully automatic PnS cam to something that's more manual has a HUGE learning curve that's gone along with it. For the time being I only have one lens, the 14-42mm auto zoom and it's not really cutting it. The shows that I shoot are pop/r&b type shows that usually have strong stage lighting. I usually shoot from inside of the pit area, or in the front of the house not too far behind the barricades, and the video that I HAVE shot with the GH4 is in NO comparison to some of the concert footage that I've seen from other people shot with the same cam.

What I'm wondering is can I get some suggestions from you all on what type of lenses I should purchase, and the proper settings to use for good video and even pics (such as ISO, Shutter speed) and ect to get the most out of my cam for what I'm shooting. Also what other accessories should I purchase to help get myself off to a running start? ANY help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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As far as settings, find GH4 videos you like on vimeo. Look for concerts/indoors/a variety of situations etc. The creators are likely to list their settings in the description or in response to someone asking in the comments.

Without knowing about your budget or shooting style, it's hard to give equipment advice. But if you haven't got any equipment yet, I would start with a used rode videomic pro, small tripod/monopod, and a backpack or case.

With lenses, you need to give more information. What's wrong with the 14-42? Can you show your previous shoots with the ZS19? Do you think you want a zoom?
 
rob norton said:
As far as settings, find GH4 videos you like on vimeo. Look for concerts/indoors/a variety of situations etc. The creators are likely to list their settings in the description or in response to someone asking in the comments.

Without knowing about your budget or shooting style, it's hard to give equipment advice. But if you haven't got any equipment yet, I would start with a used rode videomic pro, small tripod/monopod, and a backpack or case.

With lenses, you need to give more information. What's wrong with the 14-42? Can you show your previous shoots with the ZS19? Do you think you want a zoom?
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Ahhh, thanks for shedding that trinket of information about going on Vimeo, I never knew that video creators would list their preferred settings in the video description.

Budget wise, I'm NOT trying to spend over $1500 if I don't have to especially after dropping the money on the cam itself. I guess I did get one piece of equipment, I got a a trakstar SGC-598 shotgun mic because I had heard pretty decent things about it, although the time or two that I've used it, the sound levels come out extremely loud, almost too loud, and I got 2 additional batteries as well.

As far as shooting style, I usually stay pretty stationary in one spot, although I know I need to change that, but I like to get wide shots to encompass the entire stage as well as getting close shots too, so I would certainly need a zoom lens. The 14-42 is ok for wide, but even though it says it's a "power zoom" lens, I literally have to be on top of the stage to get the footage that I want. Main reason I got this lens is because I had to go out on assignment almost as soon as I purchased the cam and needed something quick and a little on the cheaper side.

Here's some footage that I shot of an outside concert with my ZS19, it's not bad at all for a point and shoot if you ask me, but then again, I am a newbie lol



Thanks for your help!
 
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Shooting in 4K but delivering in 1080p, remember that during editing you can crop into a quarter of the original frame and not lose any resolution in the final format. So, you can (at an extreme) set up the camera on a tripod with the entire band in the shot throughout the show, then in post-production you can do totally steady pans, zooms, and cuts into individual performers making it look like you had several cameras, not just one. Somewhere on YouTube there's a short video of a folk-ish duo where the guy who shot it did just that, and it comes across remarkably well.
 
Assuming that all the instruments have a microphone on them, have you ever thought of getting a recording mix out of the sound system? If you couple that with a really good wireless system you can get that mix back to your camera and have superior sound on your video. You might at the least buy a sound recorder and have the person/people at the mixing start the recording at the beginning of the show, edit it in when you get back.

I would also get a few small cameras and some stands for them, even something like a couple gopro cameras. This gives a couple more angles you can use to cover if you are reframing a shot or moving your location. More work in editing, but a better final result. A great big battery for them and the wireless control should let you start them from a distance, and let them run for a couple hours. Lots of useful things you can do with a few of these and some creative mounting hardware.
 
nastybreakdown said:
The 14-42 is ok for wide, but even though it says it's a "power zoom" lens, I literally have to be on top of the stage to get the footage that I want.
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"Power zoom" has nothing to do with focal length. (It means you can zoom using an electronic switch, as opposed to physically turning a ring on the lens.)

Also note that you're comparing the ZS19's 20X zoom to a 3X. And comparing (in Full Frame equivalent terms) the ZS19's 24-480mm zoom to a 28-84mm zoom.

So basically, you need a much longer lens. If you only want to use one lens, the closest you're gonna get is the 14-140mm. (But this still won't get you as close as the ZS19 at max zoom.) If you don't mind switching between the lens you already have (for wide shots) and another one (for telephoto), you might give the 45-200mm a look (which still won't get you quite as close as the ZS19, but it's probably the best alternative when taking your limited budget into consideration).
 
Ozpeter said:
Shooting in 4K but delivering in 1080p, remember that during editing you can crop into a quarter of the original frame and not lose any resolution in the final format. So, you can (at an extreme) set up the camera on a tripod with the entire band in the shot throughout the show, then in post-production you can do totally steady pans, zooms, and cuts into individual performers making it look like you had several cameras, not just one. Somewhere on YouTube there's a short video of a folk-ish duo where the guy who shot it did just that, and it comes across remarkably well.
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ahht thanks for that information about downscaling to 1080p from the 4k, I actually never thought about that. That's extremely cool to be able to zoom into individual performs and objects in post-production, while shooting from a wide angle, I'll def have to look for that video on Youtube somewhere. A steady pan is while moving the cam can be pretty annoying and tedious to get.


Greg_E said:
Assuming that all the instruments have a microphone on them, have you ever thought of getting a recording mix out of the sound system? If you couple that with a really good wireless system you can get that mix back to your camera and have superior sound on your video. You might at the least buy a sound recorder and have the person/people at the mixing start the recording at the beginning of the show, edit it in when you get back.


I would also get a few small cameras and some stands for them, even something like a couple gopro cameras. This gives a couple more angles you can use to cover if you are reframing a shot or moving your location. More work in editing, but a better final result. A great big battery for them and the wireless control should let you start them from a distance, and let them run for a couple hours. Lots of useful things you can do with a few of these and some creative mounting hardware.
Click to expand...


that would be an awesome idea to be able to get the audio from the house mixer to use for my video, but being that I'm doing it as a 3rd party photographer, I doubt they would even let me tap into the system, although it's worth a try to ask. A sound recorder is something that I have been thinking about picking up to go capture better sound. That's not a bad idea either about using some gopros to be able to get a multi-angle shot when I don't have someone else working with me.

BitMaestro said:
"Power zoom" has nothing to do with focal length. (It means you can zoom using an electronic switch, as opposed to physically turning a ring on the lens.)

Also note that you're comparing the ZS19's 20X zoom to a 3X. And comparing (in Full Frame equivalent terms) the ZS19's 24-480mm zoom to a 28-84mm zoom.

So basically, you need a much longer lens. If you only want to use one lens, the closest you're gonna get is the 14-140mm. (But this still won't get you as close as the ZS19 at max zoom.) If you don't mind switching between the lens you already have (for wide shots) and another one (for telephoto), you might give the 45-200mm a look (which still won't get you quite as close as the ZS19, but it's probably the best alternative when taking your limited budget into consideration).
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lol yeaaa man, I learned the hard way what the "power zoom" was all about lol I grabbed it because I needed something quick and my camera didn't come with a lens kit or anything. I have been looking at longer zoom lenses, but wasn't exactly sure which one to get that would be more equivalent to what I'm used to using with the ZS19. Funny you mentioned the 45-200mm, because I'm actually waiting for that to be delivered today. Ended up finding it for a steal of a price online. I don't mind switching between lenses if it's going to give me the optimum quality picture that I'm desiring, as I'll have to interchangeably have to take still photos as well as videos of these shows. If budget wasn't an issue, which telephoto lens would YOU recommend getting?

Thanks everyone for their responses.
 
nastybreakdown said:
that would be an awesome idea to be able to get the audio from the house mixer to use for my video, but being that I'm doing it as a 3rd party photographer, I doubt they would even let me tap into the system, although it's worth a try to ask. A sound recorder is something that I have been thinking about picking up to go capture better sound. That's not a bad idea either about using some gopros to be able to get a multi-angle shot when I don't have someone else working with me...
Click to expand...

I have a Tascam DR-60D and it works great for getting board sound. And since it's a 4 channel recorder, it really works great for catching two boomed talents and stereo ambient.

I know you say the video you took sucks, but we really would like to see it. We know what you consider good based on what you posted, but what do you consider bad? Is it too noisy, too shaky, too dark, too far away, etc.
 
nastybreakdown said:
If budget wasn't an issue, which telephoto lens would YOU recommend getting?
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The right one for the job. Seriously, remove budget as a constraint and you should get a bunch of different lenses (and cameras) so you always have the perfect one for the circumstances at hand.

Having said that, bright telephoto lenses are one area where m4/3 is lacking. Which is why a lot of folks, me included, are anxiously awaiting the Olympus 300mm f4 due out later this year. (And also why I personally shoot Canon (135mm f2, 70-200mm f2.8, Sigma 150-600mm, etc.) in addition to m4/3.) But if you really need telephoto lenses that are good in low light (concert) situations, you should probably consider switching to another format/camera. (e.g. Canon/Nikon DSLR, Panasonic FZ200, etc.)

Having said all of that, I've shot plenty of concerts with various (non-telephoto) m4/3 lenses: Voigtlander 17mm, 25mm and 42.5mm f0.95, Olympus 17mm, 45mm and 75mm f1.8, Panasonic 25mm f1.4 and 35-100mm f2.8 to name a few.

There's also the Olympus 40-150mm f2.8 to consider. (I chose to sacrifice some range in exchange for a smaller, lighter lens in the Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8 but YMMV.)

And although I find it too dark for concerts and not great optically at max zoom, there's also the Panasonic 100-300mm f4.0-5.6 (but I like it for airshows, surfing, etc.)
 
Assuming you want to really step up your production, and your whole budget is ~$3000 (you said an additional $1500 past the GH4), I would consider returning the GH4 and going for something cheaper- a G6, G7, A6000, etc (or ideally a combo or multiples of these). Then you can get a small lens set going, and the support and sound gear you'll need, and media to record to, and batteries for it all, and maybe even some money to pay a second shooter for a couple gigs until you've demonstrated your new, higher production value and can adjust your rates (to pay for thr new gear and cover a second shooter's pay in the future).

As far as lenses go, consider going the speedbooster/manual lenses route. More bang for your buck this way, and better in low light. No AF though, and getting IS will be pricey.

Or, if you don't want to drastically change your way of working and production style from what you've been doing with the P&S, maybe consider an LX100. Tiny, bright built-in stabilized lens, 4K, good control scheme.
 
https://vimeo.com/101051502

This is just one person (my friend messing around in the backyard) but this demonstrates the idea of using 4K > 1080P in order to build zooms and camera moves in post. This was made from just one medium-wide shot.

Also, note that this was shot in the evening with relatively low light. The Sigma 18-35 is a pretty amazing lens.
 
aldolega said:
Assuming you want to really step up your production, and your whole budget is ~$3000 (you said an additional $1500 past the GH4), I would consider returning the GH4 and going for something cheaper- a G6, G7, A6000, etc (or ideally a combo or multiples of these). Then you can get a small lens set going, and the support and sound gear you'll need, and media to record to, and batteries for it all, and maybe even some money to pay a second shooter for a couple gigs until you've demonstrated your new, higher production value and can adjust your rates (to pay for thr new gear and cover a second shooter's pay in the future).

As far as lenses go, consider going the speedbooster/manual lenses route. More bang for your buck this way, and better in low light. No AF though, and getting IS will be pricey.

Or, if you don't want to drastically change your way of working and production style from what you've been doing with the P&S, maybe consider an LX100. Tiny, bright built-in stabilized lens, 4K, good control scheme.
Click to expand...

A much longer zoom is his biggest need, which rules out the fixed small-range LX100. I'm thinking better choices might be the SLR form 4K Panny FZ-1000 superzoom with it's 25-400mm EFL, 1" sensor with much better hi-ISO higher ISO IQ than his P&S; or the more expensive (~$1500) Sony AX-100 4K camcorder with a 1" sensor and 29-350mm EFL. Both of these probably have better OIS than his kit zoom, and have nice looking 4K output.

Pete
 
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Why not a cheap gh3 and some lenses? Yes it removes the zoom/crop during post, but it fits the price range and really performance targets. Gh4 with adapted lenses would certainly allow the reach needed, plenty of xxx X 200mm zooms out there, with the roughly 2x crop factor you get that 400mm equivalent (full frame) angle of view.
Heck even a couple of used GH2 might be good, again having multiple cameras to cover things like lens changes and moving location is a good thing.

One thing to remember in all this, you can't always sync multiple cameras by audio. If one camera is far away from another, there is a physical delay for the sound to travel that extra distance, could be up to a frame or more in bigger venues.

It's easy to spend this guy's money since we aren't in his shoes, but some of this is dependent on his level of access. We are all kind of assuming full access to shoot video, and this may not be true. There may not be any time before performances to set up any additional equipment. In that case, a good used B3 or B4 mount video camera zoom might be best, they are parfocal and if you rig up the power you will have power zoom. No AF and no auto exposure, but would give you a good zoom ratio. Might need one with extender and then run the sensor in crop mode (about 5x). Something to think about. Would still be good if you could clamp a gopro to the ceiling for a cutaway, if at all possible.

With longer lenses, you will need at least a good monopod, tripod would be better.
 
this demonstrates the idea of using 4K > 1080P in order to build zooms and camera moves in post.
Click to expand...

It certainly does. A bit restless perhaps, but shows the technique well.

One of the few that left me looking for more...
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Very clever use of the music as the source inspiration for the video. An example to us all!
 
estarkey7 said:
I have a Tascam DR-60D and it works great for getting board sound. And since it's a 4 channel recorder, it really works great for catching two boomed talents and stereo ambient.

I know you say the video you took sucks, but we really would like to see it. We know what you consider good based on what you posted, but what do you consider bad? Is it too noisy, too shaky, too dark, too far away, etc.
Click to expand...

The last 2 times I got a feed from the house mixer the audio didn't sound anything like what the hall sounded like. We ended up mixing it with some captured with microphones as well.

I guess I'm saying multiple copies of the audio track are essential.
 
estarkey7 said:
I have a Tascam DR-60D and it works great for getting board sound. And since it's a 4 channel recorder, it really works great for catching two boomed talents and stereo ambient.

I know you say the video you took sucks, but we really would like to see it. We know what you consider good based on what you posted, but what do you consider bad? Is it too noisy, too shaky, too dark, too far away, etc.
Click to expand...

Hey, sorry about not replying back to you, it's been crazy busy lately. Well looking back at the footage, I wouldn't say it's BAD, but I guess just not what I was expecting. I've seen some vids that my partner shoots from her Nikon DSLR which look a little more crisp than my vids. Here's one of the videos that I shot using the GH4, granted I have YET to use the 4k functionality...I know, I know, why get the cam if I haven't used it yet right? lol


One of my main issues with this video was the zoom factor, which I recently got my 45-200mm telephoto lens, that I'll get to try out in a concert setting this Thursday. Aside from that, it was the overall look of the video. I'm not getting that certain "pop" that I've seen from other videos shot with GH4's, granted they were all probably shot in 4k. Let me know what you think.

As far as the Tascam DR-60D, you say it works great for getting board sound, excuse my ignorance since I'm relatively new to all of this, so you just plug it directly into the camera itself without having to get audio directly from the mixer?
 
BitMaestro said:
The right one for the job. Seriously, remove budget as a constraint and you should get a bunch of different lenses (and cameras) so you always have the perfect one for the circumstances at hand.

Having said that, bright telephoto lenses are one area where m4/3 is lacking. Which is why a lot of folks, me included, are anxiously awaiting the Olympus 300mm f4 due out later this year. (And also why I personally shoot Canon (135mm f2, 70-200mm f2.8, Sigma 150-600mm, etc.) in addition to m4/3.) But if you really need telephoto lenses that are good in low light (concert) situations, you should probably consider switching to another format/camera. (e.g. Canon/Nikon DSLR, Panasonic FZ200, etc.)

Having said all of that, I've shot plenty of concerts with various (non-telephoto) m4/3 lenses: Voigtlander 17mm, 25mm and 42.5mm f0.95, Olympus 17mm, 45mm and 75mm f1.8, Panasonic 25mm f1.4 and 35-100mm f2.8 to name a few.

There's also the Olympus 40-150mm f2.8 to consider. (I chose to sacrifice some range in exchange for a smaller, lighter lens in the Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8 but YMMV.)

And although I find it too dark for concerts and not great optically at max zoom, there's also the Panasonic 100-300mm f4.0-5.6 (but I like it for airshows, surfing, etc.)
Click to expand...

Yea, I'm changing the budget being a limiting factor by going after the used lenses and getting a different arsenal of them. So you've shot a decent amount of concerts too, have they been primarily with the GH4 or an Olympus m4/3 cam, and well how did the quality come out? It's interesting that you say for the instance of what I want to use it for, to all together ditch the GH4 and go with another brand, or the FZ200. Thank you tremendously for your lens suggestions though.

Peter Berry said:
A much longer zoom is his biggest need, which rules out the fixed small-range LX100. I'm thinking better choices might be the SLR form 4K Panny FZ-1000 superzoom with it's 25-400mm EFL, 1" sensor with much better hi-ISO higher ISO IQ than his P&S; or the more expensive (~$1500) Sony AX-100 4K camcorder with a 1" sensor and 29-350mm EFL. Both of these probably have better OIS than his kit zoom, and have nice looking 4K output.

Pete
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Yep, a long zoom is definitely one of my main needs for when/if we get kicked out of the pit and I have to go to the back of the venue lol Thanks for mentioning the Panasonic FZ-1000, I've been hearing a lot about this camera a lot lately.
 
nastybreakdown said:
As far as the Tascam DR-60D, you say it works great for getting board sound, excuse my ignorance since I'm relatively new to all of this, so you just plug it directly into the camera itself without having to get audio directly from the mixer?
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No. As Greg_E noted, you need to work with the sound guy and get a full mix (not just the mics/PA) from the board, and then sync in post. (And FWIW, I use a TASCAM DR100 Mk II and Zoom H6.)

nastybreakdown said:
So you've shot a decent amount of concerts too, have they been primarily with the GH4 or an Olympus m4/3 cam, and well how did the quality come out? It's interesting that you say for the instance of what I want to use it for, to all together ditch the GH4 and go with another brand, or the FZ200.
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I shoot with a (hacked) GH1 and GH2, Olympus E-M5 II, Canon T4i/650D and 70D.

And keep in mind that the FZ1000 is 16X zoom (max 400mm equiv.) at f4 while the FZ200 is 24X (max 600mm equiv.) at f2.8
 
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