GH3, 600, 6D moire?

B

Balagan

Member
These are the three cams that I'm looking at presently for a mix of low budget documentary production and stills work. Can anyone with experience with the three of them enlighten me as to which would serve me best? Which offers the best stills/video quality trade off and which one has the least moire?

thanks for any and all input.
 
The moire on the 6D is (in my experience) the worst by far. So i'd toss that one out.

That leaves the GH3 and the 60D. Personally, I prefer the 60D for use as BOTH a video and stills camera. You'll see moire occasionally in the 720/60p setting on the 60D, and in very specific situations in 1080p. If you know what to look for, you can generally identify what shots will moire, and work around the issue.

The GH3 is (without question in my mind) the best of the three for video only work. And it will show the least amount of moire as well. But I find the controls, ergonomics, and overall speed to be downsides in photo mode.

Best suggestion is to rent them both and see what you like best.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I've edited broadcast projects that have used the 60d and 7d as B-cams. They certainly aren't exempt from moire and the image breaks down pretty quickly with any advanced CC. I've been reading that Mosaic has come out with an anti-aliasing filter for the 6D. Is this a viable solution? Do you lose stills quality with this or any other problems? Of course I guess I'd need a loupe or monitor to do any sort of run-n-gun with it. I've always found focusing with 7d a royal pain in the butt without any expensive add-on focus assists. The GH3 sounds like the most functional documentary tool without huge investments for the moment.
 
Balagan said:
The GH3 sounds like the most functional documentary tool without huge investments for the moment.
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I think it's the lowest cost route, and most of the faster m43 lenses from Olympus and Panasonic are designed to be used at full aperture, which gives you a 2 stop depth-of-field advantage over a FF sensor camera, and allows you to shoot at 1/4 the ISO rating. ( Assuming the same angle of view and DOF, shooting at f/2.8 and 800 ISO on the GH3 is equivalent to f/5.6 and 3200 ISO on a Canon 5D Mk3 or Nikon D800 )

Examples of HQ Olympus and Panasonic m43 Lenses

Olympus 12mm f/2.0, Olympus 45mm f/1.8, Olympus 75mm f/1.8, Panasonic 14mm f/2.5, Panasonic 20mm f/1.7, Panasonic 25mm f/1.4, Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 zoom, Panasonic 35-100mm f/2.8 zoom
 
How is moire on the GH3? This is really an issue when shooting docs under tight schedules in totally uncontrollable environments. I guess the only thing drawing me toward the full frames is the quality of the stills. The reviews I've read about the GH3 seem to imply that it has pretty good IQ, but they are always relative to the OMD or similar. In your opinion how do they hold up against the stills from the 6D or D600 in real world usage? I mean can you realistically get a high quality poster sized print from the GH3? I'm sure they are fine for beautiful pan and scans, but how bout fine-art styled large prints? With good glass of course.
 
Balagan said:
How is moire on the GH3?
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It seems to be worse than the GH2, but I haven't figured out by how much. I got bit in the *ss when shooting a training interview with my GH3, because I couldn't spot the moire on the LCD or my monitor. Fortunately it didn't bother the client, so I didn't have to re-shoot the interview. I am not certain my GH2 would have been any better, but I am going to start dragging around my cheapo full res 1080 HD 22 inch TV monitor ( Samsung 5003 LED TV ) any time I have to shoot a higher profile job with the GH3. ( I sometimes wonder if it might be worth buying an AF100A for these sort of things )


Balagan said:
This is really an issue when shooting docs under tight schedules in totally uncontrollable environments.
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Lots of people are using Canon C300's for this reason. James Longley ( who won best cinematography at Sundance 2006 for his "Iraq in Fragments" documentary ), now shoots with a Canon C300.

Cinema EOS: Afghanistan Documentary, James Longley


Balagan said:
I guess the only thing drawing me toward the full frames is the quality of the stills
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There are several pro shooters that have started shooting with GH3 as an alternative to their bigger and bulkier Canon / Nikon gear, and I expect to see more pros taking a harder look at the m43 format once Olympus finally produces their "Pro" m43 camera. ( it sounds like it might be this year )

I doubt that there is anything that can currently compete with the full resolution of a Nikon D800e camera, so if huge prints are your goal, it's the camera to buy.

Otherwise, consider that the Nikon D4 shoots the same GH3 16 Mpx resolution ( with huge low-light sensitivity from the FF sensor ), so I don't think the GH3 still photo resolution is really that limiting.
 
if moire is your deciding point. i say get a GH2. it has practically NO moire at all. and from what ive seen, the GH3 DOES

the only major benes of the GH3 over the GH2 are: 1080/60, bigger and more element-resistant body, 2 control wheels, somewhat more latitude.

some would argue that a hacked GH2 isnt noticeably worse than a native GH3
 
@TheDingo: I wish I had the cash right now to own a C300 with all the accessories and lenses to go with it, but unfortunately that's not possible at this time. I do find the GH3s size and weight to be a big plus. Thanks for the James Longley link. Do you find your GH3 has a bit of a jitter or cadence issue? I seemed to have noticed it especially when panning during a short test using the Panny 12-35 lens. I was wondering if the moire and jitter might have been exacerbated by the lens.

@wgzn: I personally like the size and functions of the Gh3 over the Gh2. What I'd really like to know is if the 6D and D600 are less prone to moire or are equal to the GH3. They both seem to take beautiful stills and offer creamy DOF, and better high ISO performance. Have you had any hands-on production experience with either of them?
 
Balagan said:
I personally like the size and functions of the Gh3 over the Gh2. What I'd really like to know is if the 6D and D600 are less prone to moire or are equal to the GH3. They both seem to take beautiful stills and offer creamy DOF, and better high ISO performance. Have you had any hands-on production experience with either of them?
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I've used all three of the cameras you're asking about. Again, I'd throw out the 6D. The moire on it is by far the worst of the three. From my experience, in 1080/24P mode, the GH3 and 60D show about the same moire, and in mainly the same situations. But with the 60D, if you want to shoot 60P (for slow-mo, for instance), the 60D will moire much more easily than the GH3, which can shoot slow-mo in full 1080P mode.
 
Balagan said:
I wish I had the cash right now to own a C300 with all the accessories and lenses to go with it, but unfortunately that's not possible at this time.
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The Canon C100 looks like a nice alternative to the C300 at less than half the cost. ( same sensor, same electronics ) Add on an external recorder and you've got 1080p in a 4:2:2 color space. ( I would love to see a shootout between the C300 vs C100 )

Balagan said:
Do you find your GH3 has a bit of a jitter or cadence issue?
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Nothing so far, but so far I've been using 1/40 sec shutter speed when shooting 24fps with my GH3, which was the fix for my GH2 when it came to motion cadence.
 
cheap cameras that are basically moire-free*
- Nikon D5200
- Panasonic GH2
- Canon 5D3


* there is no such thing as completely moire-free, I believe you can make it appear even on an EPIC if you're determined to get it there; but I still haven't seen any example of a real-world shot with moire on any of these cameras
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I don't know much about the D5200. How does it compare to the Gh3 in terms of overall IQ and video functionality? Which would you suggest?

Like I said Im looking for a good stills/video trade off in a broadcast quality camera that is functional without a huge investment in accessories on low budget documentaries. I know that there's no perfect (affordable) option on the market... Yet. On fully funded series work or one-offs, production normally has budgets for higher end stuff and if I need a C300 or F3 for specific shoots that already are green lit I can always rent. What I need is a great tool for those projects that are barely funded or not yet funded and that I can shoot any time anywhere and still get broadcast quality results and beautiful stills.

In general I'm pretty amazed at the overall quality of these little cams compared to about 6-7 years ago when we were shooting run-n-gun doc series on the HPC2000. Amazing quality but you needed a personal chiropractor on the project.
 
ive never liked the look of ANY stills ive gotten from the GH line with native m4/3 lenses. and only kinda liked what i got with adapted old nikon primes. and from what ive heard from a couple other folks, the 3 isnt worlds better than the 2.

not to say you CANT get good looking stills with a gh. it just seemed to always take more crafting to get there than most field situations would allow. and there was always still just a little more "magic" to what i got from canon/nikon.

there is a MASSIVE lack of really nice looking native m4/3 glass. so if youre going to rely on any of the modern/auto functions, its going to be a constant trade off when discussing stills.

if pro/semi-pro-quality still performance and a lack or moire were my two biggest needs. my hands down winner would be a canon 5d3. the only major advantages for me of the gh3 relative to a 5d3 would be 1080/60 and no clip length limits.
and of course that pesky feature of being 1/3 the price of a 5d3 ; )

for my uses, EVERY dslr has at least one crippling compromise. so i dont own any of them. i just rent the best tool for the job at hand.
 
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wgzn said:
I've never liked the look of ANY stills ive gotten from the GH line with native m4/3 lenses
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I would agree with statement when discussing the GH1 and GH2 cameras, but NOT for the GH3. As a long time professional photographer, I am very happy with the image the GH3 captures for both video and still photos.

Right now there are only four m43 cameras that I would use for professional still photo work: Panasonic GH3, Olympus OM-D EM5, Olympus E-PL5, Olympus E-PM2

The sensor ( probably a Sony ) in all of these four cameras captures a very high quality image, right up to 3200 ISO.


wgzn said:
There is a MASSIVE lack of really nice looking native m4/3 glass
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There are two schools of thought when it comes to m43 lens design...

- The Old School : Voightlander f/0.95 Primes, SLR Magic HyperPrimes, which are very fast lenses but don't function optimally wide open. ( you need to stop down a few stops to hit their sweet spot )

- The New School : Olympus f/1.8 and f/2.0 Primes, Panasonic Fast Primes and f/2.8 Zooms, which are designed to be completely sharp and usable at full aperture and produce a high contrast image.

...Over the past year I have become convinced that the "New School" lenses produce the best looking image from the m43 format, but you have to work to control the high sharpness and high contrast from these lenses. ( either in post, or when you are shooting ) Adding sharpness and contrast in post is not the same as having lenses that produce these qualities right from the get-go.

This is a personal choice for me, so I don't expect everyone to agree with this idea, but I expect to see more "New School" pro quality lenses from both Olympus and Panasonic in the next couple of years.

i.e. Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.2, Panasonic 150mm f/2.8, Olympus f/2.8 constant aperture pro zooms ( especially once the Olympus Pro m43 camera body is announced )
 
TheDingo said:
I would agree with statement when discussing the GH1 and GH2 cameras, but NOT for the GH3. As a long time professional photographer, I am very happy with the image the GH3 captures for both video and still photos.
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Thats a great endorsement. The more I look around, the more I'm starting to lean toward the GH3. This footage is surprisingly moire free. Is it due to the Nikkor 500mm or shooting 60p and conforming to 24 or 25 with Twixtor in post? https://vimeo.com/groups/gh3/videos/61763975

Stills quality seems good but a bit dull straight from camera judging from a lot of the examples I've seen on the net. Misses that full frame magic, creamy bokeh and smooth tonal transitions, and the Canon skin color...

I really appreciate your feedback.
 
Balagan said:
This footage is surprisingly moire free. Is it due to the Nikkor 500mm or shooting 60p and conforming to 24 or 25 with Twixtor in post?
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Moire usually shows up with fine repeating geometric patterns, which you don't see that often in natural environments.


Balagan said:
Stills quality seems good but a bit dull straight from camera judging from a lot of the examples I've seen on the net. Misses that full frame magic, creamy bokeh and smooth tonal transitions, and the Canon skin color...
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The GH3 has only been out for a couple of months and has been a pretty hard camera to find, so most of the shots you are going to see on the web are people's test shots.

To get a better idea of what the GH3 can do in the still photo world, I would look at the Olympus OM-D EM5 Flickr group pool photos, as the sensor in the OM-D EM5 is essentially the same as the GH3. ( the electronics are different, but the sensors seem to have the same characteristics )

Flickr Olympus-OMD-EM5 Group

Flickr Olympus-OMD Group
 
TheDingo said:
Moire usually shows up with fine repeating geometric patterns, which you don't see that often in natural environments.
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I posted this link https://vimeo.com/groups/gh3/videos/61763975 cause the sails have multiple repeating and contrasting patterns and I see no moire there. I found the footage quite spectacular and would have loved to see the GH3 fitted with the 500mm Nikkor. ;-)

TheDingo said:
To get a better idea of what the GH3 can do in the still photo world, I would look at the Olympus OM-D EM5 Flickr group pool photos, as the sensor in the OM-D EM5 is essentially the same as the GH3. ( the electronics are different, but the sensors seem to have the same characteristics )

Flickr Olympus-OMD-EM5 Group

Flickr Olympus-OMD Group
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Thanks for these. I'll have a look.
 
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