Camera Expert
Well-known member
Believe it or not but some people actually prefer the fluid motion of 60p over 24p. This is why the TM700 have gotten a lot of praise.
GH2 official discussion thread
- Thread starter Vitaliy Kiselev
- Start date
For anyone who has access to the camera -- I have a question that should be fairly easy to answer.
A number of people have reported that 60i looks surprisingly progressive on both the internal monitor -- as well as an HDMI-connected screen.
Typically, interlace profiles do not look progressive because each field is derived from a successive frame capture -- and object motion is "displaced" on every successive field.
The comments regarding progressive-looking footage makes me wonder if the 60i captures are really, in fact, 1080p/29.97 PsF (progressive segmented frame) -- meaning that two adjacent fields in 60i are actually temporally-correlated and derived from the same fundamental image capture. In doing so, the video would have a 59.94 interlace profile -- but would, in fact, be the equivalent of progressive 29.97 -- only segmented.
This should be really easy to see by playing-back video off the camera -- or viewing a capture in a NLE -- and looking for motion-based interlace artifacts on any "paused" frame consisting of two fields. If you are viewing a complete frame and a moving object is NOT in perfect alignment -- then each field is derived from 60 discrete sensor captures. On the other hand, if you are looking at two complete fields -- and you DON'T see motion-based interlace artifacts -- then the two adjacent fields would have to be derived from a single sensor capture -- and the footage is really 29.97PsF.
The importance of this -- is that through simple deinterlacing -- we can derive a 1080p/29.97 profile that is quite useful for a number of applications -- not the least of which include a progressive recording format that is more appropriate than 24p for faster moving objects, a recording speed that allows for gentle "overcranking" while still staying progressive -- and a framerate profile that facilitates a number of interesting "deliverable" options.
Thanks in advance for any feedback on this question.
A number of people have reported that 60i looks surprisingly progressive on both the internal monitor -- as well as an HDMI-connected screen.
Typically, interlace profiles do not look progressive because each field is derived from a successive frame capture -- and object motion is "displaced" on every successive field.
The comments regarding progressive-looking footage makes me wonder if the 60i captures are really, in fact, 1080p/29.97 PsF (progressive segmented frame) -- meaning that two adjacent fields in 60i are actually temporally-correlated and derived from the same fundamental image capture. In doing so, the video would have a 59.94 interlace profile -- but would, in fact, be the equivalent of progressive 29.97 -- only segmented.
This should be really easy to see by playing-back video off the camera -- or viewing a capture in a NLE -- and looking for motion-based interlace artifacts on any "paused" frame consisting of two fields. If you are viewing a complete frame and a moving object is NOT in perfect alignment -- then each field is derived from 60 discrete sensor captures. On the other hand, if you are looking at two complete fields -- and you DON'T see motion-based interlace artifacts -- then the two adjacent fields would have to be derived from a single sensor capture -- and the footage is really 29.97PsF.
The importance of this -- is that through simple deinterlacing -- we can derive a 1080p/29.97 profile that is quite useful for a number of applications -- not the least of which include a progressive recording format that is more appropriate than 24p for faster moving objects, a recording speed that allows for gentle "overcranking" while still staying progressive -- and a framerate profile that facilitates a number of interesting "deliverable" options.
Thanks in advance for any feedback on this question.
reem12
Veteran
Maybe Barry Green or someone else who has experience with the canons 5d/7d, and the panny gh1/2 can answer this.
As a canon owner I have recently grown fond of the look of this gh2, but my question is In most clips from these cameras, why is it that the skin tones seem more pasty on the canons then the panny's when the canons have a higher bit rate. Can someone please explain this to me. I really didn't notice it as much until i started looking at comparisons of the 2.
As a canon owner I have recently grown fond of the look of this gh2, but my question is In most clips from these cameras, why is it that the skin tones seem more pasty on the canons then the panny's when the canons have a higher bit rate. Can someone please explain this to me. I really didn't notice it as much until i started looking at comparisons of the 2.
larryfine451
Active member
"But... though the AF100 records 1080/60p, from what I understand, it only plays that recording back at 24p (already slowed down)"
Yes and it also does not output it on its output jacks as well ....But I only want it for its 1080p slo -mo so its great for me .... to match up to normal 1080p footage instead of having to switch to 720p ...
Yes and it also does not output it on its output jacks as well ....But I only want it for its 1080p slo -mo so its great for me .... to match up to normal 1080p footage instead of having to switch to 720p ...
Sage
Well-known member
Color science (bitrate is unrelated)
Each maker has their own signature color science - Canon is coded for high gloss fashion film look, and Panny a more linear response
I know the dream is 1080 60p from the senor for smooth slo-mo in a 1080 24p timeline but I can't help but wonder if there will be someone who figures out a way to use the interlaced 1080 60i footage in at 24p timeline and somehow makes it look nearly as smooth as the much wanted 1080 60p. Newbie here so I'm guessing no one wants that 1080 60i footage for slo-mo in a 24p project is because of the interlacing. Right? Just wondering how bad it really would look all things considered.
Ragnar
Ragnar
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The 1080i footage has already been uploaded and it is definitely 1080i/60 and not 1080i/30p psf. The 1080i footage should look progressive on a TV or display. It has been deinterlaced so it is progressive now. However, it should also have less vertical resolution as well. How much less is still yet to be determined.
You can create smooth slow mo from 1080i, one simple way is with JES deinterlacer. This gives you a 720 downres. I used to do the same within FCP, taking 1080i to half speed and then using interpolated deinterlacing, it produced a smooth slow mo with a slight drop in sharpness. I'm not sure about going 60i to 24p for slow mo in a timeline though, somebody might have figured a good workflow.
As Sage has posted, each manufacturer has their own colour engine, the Canon colour engine just happens to have the WORST skin tones on the market. When we were looking at getting some 35mm DLRS a year ago, we tested a bunch of Canons & Nikons, the Nikons won by a mile in the colour stakes, especially the skin tones, but we were predisposed to the Canons so we tried profiling the 5DmkII ( The best skin tones of the Canons then ) but we still could not get what we were looking for.
FWIW our reference was our Hassy H3Ds & the Nikons came closest.
FWIW our reference was our Hassy H3Ds & the Nikons came closest.
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Actually, 2.5x
For certain footage 60p looks better than 24p. I think with wider availability of [affordable] large sensor technology which allows capture at higher frame rates we'll see more and more examples of "new" type of cinema, which will complement the "traditional 24p" aesthetic. And then, it is only a matter of time before someone mixes footage with different frame rates in the same "feature" (without conformance) and makes it look good. The technology is certainly there ...
On GH2 this is possible using the VMM
Thanks for that link.
And yes, I had read that post -- and your reply a couple of pages back.
Until we get our hands on this camera -- the 'real world' effectiveness of this technique will remain largely theoretical.
... Not that the 'math' does not work -- just that the speeded-up footage ends-up having a 'look' that is worth the effort.
Frankly, I was hoping for a more straightforward approach (deinterlacing PsF) to achieving 1080p/29.97.
And an approach that did not preclude the ability to record synchronized audio -- other than using dual system with its associated potential drift.
Thanks for the link though.
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
Just curious if anyone who has an PAL GH2 has tried this "25p" experiment? It seems like an interesting theory, but I don't know if it "works" or not.
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What about the LCD Screen of the GH2?
I´m currently filming with a 60D and even with its ultra High-Def LCD, it is hard to pull focus without a viewfinder or Monitor x etc...
I think the LCD screen of the GH2 has far less resolution than the 60D´s, so how to get a sharp picture with MF?
I´m currently filming with a 60D and even with its ultra High-Def LCD, it is hard to pull focus without a viewfinder or Monitor x etc...
I think the LCD screen of the GH2 has far less resolution than the 60D´s, so how to get a sharp picture with MF?
Sage
Well-known member
I'm fairly certain you can achieve 30p over-cranking w/ simply enabling the 80% speed feature in 24p. That way, you get the full 24mbps, and the footage is already slowed and ready to go in 1080p. I intend to use that soft over cranking feature, and then use the 40 4 megapixel pictures in a second to do 3k high resolution 60% slow motion. I may turn to 720p 60 for 40%, or try twixtor to achieve ambitious high resolution slow motion at slower speeds from the 40 pictures. Either way, I feel gloriously happy with the options right off the bat, and can't wait for a certain hack...
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
What about the LCD Screen of the GH2? I´m currently filming with a 60D and even with its ultra High-Def LCD, it is hard to pull focus without a viewfinder or Monitor x etc... I think the LCD screen of the GH2 has far less resolution than the 60D´s, so how to get a sharp picture with MF?
Don't forget that the GH2's built-in electronic viewfinder is 1.5MP, which is significantly higher res than the 60D's 1MP LCD screen, and you don't have to buy an expensive 3rd party add-on LCD magnifier loupe.
you can MF with lcd screen just fine with GH/GF1...I cant see it being a problem with GH2
*hint* when you focus on something with gh1 and it looks like what you focusing on has a bit of alaising or strobe then its in focus *peaked point*.... a benefit from the slightly lower res screen...perhaps deliberate!
I myself rely on this for mf...if they take that away then it will make it harder like 60ds lcd