GH2 official discussion thread

[Barry_Green]

The silly thing is that the GH1 has 25p and the GH2 doesn't. This means that they have actually dropped a facility they currently offer.

That's not the way they see it. They believe that they have ADDED a facility that wasn't previously offered -- 1080/50i. The GH2 does 50i and 60i, which is the prevailing broadcast system.

I was floored when I asked them where in the world 25p went, and the response I got from one of the Lumix reps from a PAL territory was basically "what are you talking about? It has PAL support, it does 50i!"

Why the hell they didn't just do a 550D and offer 24, 25 + 30p as standard I'll never know.

Because they think they've gone beyond that. They offer 50i, 60i, 50p, 60p, and 24p.

It doesn't help the PAL users who want/need 25p, but ... near as I can tell, this is their thinking. They've gone and enhanced the camera beyond that stuttery film-look 25p, and added 50i for the "live" video look. And frankly, for the vast majority of their customers, that's probably true -- they will probably prefer that. For PAL users who want 25p, we're left with either a case of use 720/50p and drop every other frame, or use 1080/24p and speed it up by 4%.

 

[Framerate]

You do realize that Panasonic is a Japanese company, yes? And Japan is one of the NTSC countries.

Well, yes - but I'm not quite sure what that has got to do with the price of fish.

Japan is a country in very serious economic trouble - base rates there have just been lowered to virtually zero in a desperate attempt to provide stimulus.

That being so, one might reasonably think that selling abroad would be a top priority for them, and that anything that assisted exports would be eagerly seized upon.

No-one is suggesting that selling a few thousand more Lumix GH2's to PAL customers is going to rescue Japan from disaster - but any recovery will be cumulative, and every extra camera sold is a few more Yen to the good.

In this case, camera sales could be boosted for next to no extra cost - a jiggle with the firmware, and they have a product that is more desirable to many potential buyers in the majority of countries in the world.

 

[Framerate]

Because they think they've gone beyond that. They offer 50i, 60i, 50p, 60p, and 24p.
.

Surely, one of the biggest drawbacks is that the 25bps rate is only available in 24p?

Probably, most people contemplating the GH2 have already grown used to wallowing in high bit-rates from the hack? - even 24bps doesn't sound much when compared to what P-Toll offers, and 17bps at the frame rates most suitable for PAL users now seems downright mean.

If, for whatever reason, they are not/will never give 25p, they could at least have endowed the the other options with a higher bit rate, no?

 

[Barry_Green]

All I was saying is that you don't have to look to the US as being somehow the place that sets the agenda -- Japan itself is an NTSC territory so obviously it's going to be high on their list. That's all.

As to why they took 25p away -- I think it's ridiculous. But I've tried to explain what their viewpoint is. They don't see the world clamoring for 25p. They see people wanting a hybrid stills/video camera, and that's what they're delivering. And as far as they're concerned, they've made it better by giving it full 50i, instead of stuttery 25p. We here on this board disagree, of course, because 25p is a highly important thing for people who want to make film-like footage in PAL territories. But that's not the primary market they're after.

 

[Framerate]

All I was saying is that you don't have to look to the US as being somehow the place that sets the agenda -- Japan itself is an NTSC territory so obviously it's going to be high on their list. That's all.

As to why they took 25p away -- I think it's ridiculous. But I've tried to explain what their viewpoint is. They don't see the world clamoring for 25p. They see people wanting a hybrid stills/video camera, and that's what they're delivering. And as far as they're concerned, they've made it better by giving it full 50i, instead of stuttery 25p. We here on this board disagree, of course, because 25p is a highly important thing for people who want to make film-like footage in PAL territories. But that's not the primary market they're after.

No, I quite understand - and I hope I didn't sound unnecessarily combative ;(- I didn't mean to.

Point is, though, it wouldn't actually cost them anything to satisfy *everyone* - and since they're (presumably) hoping to sell as many cameras as they possibly can, you'd think that they would shrug their shoulders and say, Oh, well...if that's what they want, give it 'em"

BTW - when you say the available modes are 50/60p & 50/60i - presumably you mean that the sensor captures 50/60p, but outputs 50/60i?, or have I misunderstood? - it would be nice if there were 50/60p modes.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

For PAL users who want 25p, we're left with either a case of use 720/50p and drop every other frame, or use 1080/24p and speed it up by 4%.

Or just deinterlace the 1080i and end up with 1920x540 @ 25 FPS. The other option is that I believe the camera will be hacked pretty easily to shoot 1080p @ 50 FPS. I think they left out 25 FPS because they know it will be hacked to do it and then they don't have to officially support it.

 

[pomoville]

Deinterlacing the 50i would give you 1920x1080 25p.

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

Or just deinterlace the 1080i and end up with 1920x540 @ 25 FPS. The other option is that I believe the camera will be hacked pretty easily to shoot 1080p @ 50 FPS. I think they left out 25 FPS because they know it will be hacked to do it and then they don't have to officially support it.

As I already said, if they hope that camera will be hacked and design it so - someone in Panasonic managment must be fired immediately. It is completely silly.
Gladly, I think that this isn't the case here.
They just have 50p sensor output. And possible not designed 25p mode (AF speed may be of big concern here as you can't improve it keeping such low rate).
50p is big risk. And with very high probability, encoder is not up to the task.
So, here we have 50i.
Without any stupid conspiracy theories.

 

[GrahamH]

I'm coming very late to this thread, but my assumption is that Panasonic sees itself as 'simplifying' things for us consumers by converging on the the BluRay format options (with 1080P60 as some added spice).

BluRay doesn't offer 30P or 25P, so Panasonic isn't intending to either ... at least at this sub-$1000 price point.

 

[Spectra]

PAL SD is definitely superior to NTSC SD. Technically NTSC HD is better than PAL HD for low light shooting since it can theoretically allow slightly longer shutter durations. The difference in 24 FPS and 25 FPS is negligible for motion.

I agree...hence why I stated "a superior system in the past"

The difference in 24 FPS and 25 FPS is negligible for motion.

Again very true....BUT the problem with 24P is you cant synchronise a 180 degree shutter speed (1/48th second) with a 50 Hz power supply and you have an issue under certain artificial lights that flicker at 50 Hz...you are better to acquire and post produce in 25P allowing synchronisation with the local power grid.....then you can output a 24P master easily for distribution or broadcast in NTSC regions.

 

[Spectra]

Deinterlacing the 50i would give you 1920x1080 25p.

Not really - a basic deinterlace will give you 1920x540 pixel resolution....you can increase resolution by using different algorithms that use motion estimation or pixel tracking to rebuild the interlaced frames - but you cant truly get back what you never had to begin with.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Not really - a basic deinterlace will give you 1920x540 pixel resolution....you can increase resolution by using different algorithms that use motion estimation or pixel tracking to rebuild the interlaced frames - but you cant truly get back what you never had to begin with.

+1 You can't create what isn't there.

 

[pomoville]

Not really - a basic deinterlace will give you 1920x540 pixel resolution....you can increase resolution by using different algorithms that use motion estimation or pixel tracking to rebuild the interlaced frames - but you cant truly get back what you never had to begin with.

I think you're thinking of analog tv/VCR style interlace, which would give 50 fields per second, all captured in sequence and with no possibility of reconstituting 25 full frames from it. This is just 25p wrapped in 50i, that is, 25 frames split into 50 fields, fully reconstructable.

If people are thinking that this is old style, relatively terrible interlacing, they should stop worrying, because it isn't. Aside from some potential hassles in dealing with it, it's the same as 25p. Visually it is the same.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

As I already said, if they hope that camera will be hacked and design it so - someone in Panasonic managment must be fired immediately. It is completely silly.
Gladly, I think that this isn't the case here.
They just have 50p sensor output. And possible not designed 25p mode (AF speed may be of big concern here as you can't improve it keeping such low rate).
50p is big risk. And with very high probability, encoder is not up to the task.
So, here we have 50i.
Without any stupid conspiracy theories.

If you say it won't be hacked then I guess it won't be hacked since you are the one we are counting on to hack it. However, I still don't believe that they don't have any intention of this camera doing 1080p @ 60 FPS when they have been advertising everywhere that the sensor records at 1080p @ 60 FPS. I think they are just including all of the officially supported formats of Blu-ray and leaving it up to us/you to add the other ones we want.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I think you're thinking of analog tv/VCR style interlace, which would give 50 fields per second, all captured in sequence and with no possibility of reconstituting 25 full frames from it. This is just 25p wrapped in 50i, that is, 25 frames split into 50 fields, fully reconstructable.

If people are thinking that this is old style, relatively terrible interlacing, they should stop worrying, because it isn't. Aside from some potential hassles in dealing with it, it's the same as 25p. Visually it is the same.

In the case of the GH2 it does not record 1080p @ 25 FPS encapsulated in 1080i. The GH1 did. However, I am not aware of any format that officially supports 1080p @ 25 FPS. My understanding is that Blu-ray is true 1080i @ 50 Fields per second. Can anyone confirm this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

1920×1080 50-i 16:9 2D encodes only

 

[pomoville]

If you split raw 25p video into fields it would be 50i and would play fine on Bluray (assuming bluray does 50i, I don't use bluray.)

If the gh2 does record 50 discrete fields instead of 25 frames, wouldn't that end up looking the same as its '50 fps' setting? Since that is being downgraded to 50i as well (and therefore losing half it's vertical resolution.)

According to specs, the gh2 records 60i instead of 30p -- if it is indeed recording discrete fields instead of frames, shouldn't people be irritated with that, as well?

The most obvious thing I see as marginalized on the camera is 60/50 fps, which certainly will lose an awful lot of resolution, unless one records to a separate recorder. Oh well, it doesn't terribly bother me.

 

[svecher]

As I already said, if they hope that camera will be hacked and design it so - someone in Panasonic managment must be fired immediately. It is completely silly.
Gladly, I think that this isn't the case here.
They just have 50p sensor output. And possible not designed 25p mode (AF speed may be of big concern here as you can't improve it keeping such low rate).

Well, AF performance should be even slower in 24p mode, so I can't really see how this can be a serious concern. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what most PAListanians are asking for is not to revert the glorious 1080/50i mode back to 1080/25PsF, but instead to have a simple region switch that controls frame rate in "cinema mode". Set it to NTSC and you get 1080/24p out. Set it to PAL and you get 1080/25PsF out. All within standard, should work on everyone's TV and everyone is happy. Probably not as simple to implement though, given your past comments on firmware coding style.

50p is big risk. And with very high probability, encoder is not up to the task.
So, here we have 50i.
Without any stupid conspiracy theories.

Well, they took the risk with TM700, which is even more of a consumer style cam and that seems to have worked out ok.

 

[Spectra]

I think you're thinking of analog tv/VCR style interlace, which would give 50 fields per second, all captured in sequence and with no possibility of reconstituting 25 full frames from it.

Yes - this is interlace video which is what I was describing.

This is just 25p wrapped in 50i, that is, 25 frames split into 50 fields, fully reconstructable.

I understand that the GH1 is 25P frames in a 50i "wrapper"....but that is then progressive footage....ie not what I would call interlace.

If people are thinking that this is old style, relatively terrible interlacing, they should stop worrying, because it isn't. Aside from some potential hassles in dealing with it, it's the same as 25p. Visually it is the same.

All reports so far about the GH2 that I read have described the output as "analog tv/VCR style interlace" as you call it...ie no true progressive frames....this is why we hear so much "moaning" about the GH2....there is no true progressive frames even in the 50P mode....I would love to be proven wrong on this...does anyone know for sure that the GH2 doesnt have true progressive frames? Barry?

 

[svecher]

All reports so far about the GH2 that I read have described the output as "analog tv/VCR style interlace" as you call it...ie no true progressive frames....this is why we hear so much "moaning" about the GH2....there is no true progressive frames even in the 50P mode....I would love to be proven wrong on this...does anyone know for sure that the GH2 doesnt have true progressive frames? Barry?

Well, there is 50p in 720 mode. Analysis of preliminary streams shows it's the same as 720 mode on GH1. In addition to 720 modes, 1080/24p mode is "true progressive" as well. 1080 50/60i are "true interlaced."

 

[seewolf]

filmlook

filmlook

since dvx100 panasonic stands for great filmlook with its progressive modes on videocameras. thats why many people love panasonic cameras and have bought them.
so i would really wonder if that new gh2 really put 50i out of the cam.
hope that panasonic will ad 25p30p or 50p60p to the firmware.

would like to use it as a b-cam with the new af101.
with interlaced output i have to buy a canon 60d :-(
m.