GH2 official discussion thread

[svecher]

Yeah, but there's been no mention at all about native 25p. Which sucks for about 2/3ds of the world. :crybaby:

yes i'm in PAL land and would prefer 1080 25p, but i'm hoping that from the 50i image we can get hold of the full 50p data and then just throw every other frame away..

So the best any PAL user can hope for to get 25P is 17MBPS in a 50i wrapper?

The apparent lack (unless I missed something) of true 25p kills things for me. I'm shooting for UK broadcast so 25p is where I need to be, not 24p or 30p, I need 1080/25p or real 720/50p when I need slo-mo. 1080/50p would have been the deal 'maker' for me, but then the codec would need to be much faster too.

Ok, since so many are asking for true 25p, I embarked on a little research mission. Apparently, there is no such thing as true 25p in AVCHD standard.

Which is Panasonic's official cover for not implementing it. Like Noel said, the best PAL users wanting 25p are apparently getting stock is 25PsF output @17 Mbps, which with very little post-processing will translate into 25p @ 17Mbps.

 

[Rick Burnett]

If you really knew anything about the GH1 you would know that, as stated by Barry Green in a few occasions, the aliasing and moire in the GH1 is very negligible. And that is one of the many pluses with the camera. If the GH2 improves even a little on that it would be pretty fantastic in that department alone. Plus with all the other upgrades it should shoot some pretty awesome images for sure.

It's not negligible, it's just not rainbow colored. I've seen enough footage of shirts, power lines, brick buildings, to see the dancing patterns on GH1 footage. I've downloaded footage to work with as I was deciding when the GH13 hack came out if I wanted to invest in a GH1. Granted, like I said it is a WORLD of improvement over the Canons (which is an understatement), it's still there and I still don't like it. It's also a pain in the neck when I am trying to do rotoscoping and other compositing which I do.

I imagine everyone has their own tolerance to where they are willing to accept a level of Moire/Aliasing. Even the Red One has aliasing as it's just a fact of where to place the OLPF at your target resolution based on the inequality of color sampling in the Bayer Pattern filters.

But, like it has been mentioned, the AF100 has tuned the sensor, as Panasonic has stated, towards video. There is no compromise for still shooting on the camera, and it cannot shoot full resolution images on it. The GH2 is designed for taking pictures full-rez as well, so obviously the sensor has been tuned to take good photos at the full resolution.

I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest the aliasing/moire characteristics of the GH2 to be any better than the GH1 in anything I have seen. If this is negligable for you, then this is the camera for you, for me it is not. Barry specifically tested the AF101 for moire, pointing it at brick buildings and such as this is certainly a concern.

 

[Satsuei]

I'm inclined to disagree with dpreview's assessment:

Each field in a 60i video stream contains only 540 scan lines - half the 1080p FHD vertical resolution of the sensor. If the GH2 is recording its 60i stream from a sensor that is being sampled at 60fps, then it is recording with a vertical resolution of only 540p. While these 60i fields interleave into a 30fps sequence with a vertical resolution of 1080i, it is NOT 1080p, it is interlaced video and there is no pixel-accurate pulldown process which will produce even a native 30p stream, much less 60p video. It is inevitably 1080i60 footage and there is no legitimate way to make it progressive.

What if it's like the Sony NEX-VG10 implementation of taking 30fps sensor output and putting it into a 60i stream?

Progressive Segmented Frame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_Frame

I've tried it, and you can drop the 60i footage from a VG10 onto a 30fps progressive timeline without problems. No interlacing lines that I could see. And it behaves like real progressive video.

I'm hoping the GH2 would do the same thing with it's 60i container... but I can't find any information about that yet.

Any ideas?

 

[Lpowell]

Which is Panasonic's official cover for not implementing it. Like Noel said, the best PAL users wanting 25p are apparently getting stock is 25PsF output @17 Mbps, which with very little post-processing will translate into 25p @ 17Mbps.

Of course, Panasonic can implement any extensions to the AVCHD standard they please, as they did with the GF1's "AVCHD-Lite" 720p30 mode, packaged in a 60p wrapper.

However, if the dpreview article I quoted above is correct, the GH2's 1080i50 mode is not in fact a package that contains 25PsF video. It would actually be 1080i50 video, sampled at a vertical resolution of 540p at 50fps. Unlike 25PsF, 50i interlaced video cannot be legitimately post-processed into 25p progressive video.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I should also add, it sounds like the GH2 is a great camera, no question, especially at the price point. That said, to me, which was brought up by others in this thread, is that the AF100 is also a great camera, and in my opinion, MUCH better all around than the GH2 on every single level. I mean, I guess it should be since it is 5x as much for the body!

I also think that those buying this with the hope of it being hacked realize that obviously Panasonic does not want you to hack their cameras and is going to do stuff to prevent it as they already have started doing.

If someone came to me today wanting an entry level camera to get started shooting video in the large sensor format, I'd WITHOUT QUESTION point them to the GH2.

1) They can use the camera as a still camera if they decide that video is not their thing.

2) Given the current offerings, it looks to be the best deal on close to S35 sized sensors with a HUGELY attractive price and a superior performance to Canon in my opinion.

If they are hell bent on FF35 size, well, then they will have to go the 5D, but that is a serious investment as well.

If someone comes to me who shots on anything in the HV200 range of cameras across the board, I will without hesitation recommend the AF100. And if someone asks me if it is worth the extra money for the AF100 over the GH2, I will say absolutely. Just looking at the announced features alone shows me this.

Of course the proof will be in the footage. Give the prototype had 10.5 stops of DR, and they said they are 70% done with their tuning, I can only imagine it's going to get better.

 

[dadoboy]

To me, the GH2 would make a great B camera to the AF100. Kind of like the way the Aaaton A-Minima was often used for tight spots alongside large super 16mm cameras.

 

[Noel Evans]

Of course the proof will be in the footage. Give the prototype had 10.5 stops of DR, and they said they are 70% done with their tuning, I can only imagine it's going to get better.

Id have to agree with you there.

The hope is for all concerned both the GH2 and AF100 shoot excellent footage. And lets assume for a moment that when shot side by side theres no real discernible difference. Especially good if you got an AF100 and want a cheaper B cam option.

What you do get with the AF100, is a simple way of working with the camera - everything needed is built in. That makes a big difference, when youre busy and have a shot list 20 miles long to get through in a week.

I have made particular note in this thread of the no 25p - but Id like to clarify something. I think thats only important for PAL users shooting for broadcast in PAL countries or for that matter NTSC users that are shooting purely for broadcast delivery in PAL countries. If youre buying this camera to shoot short narratives shooting 24P is all you need and also if all your content ends up on the internet, again, 24p is all you need.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Yeah, I think the GH2 is going to put a serious hurt on the 7D/550D/60D sales if the image quality is as good as it sounds. Not sure what they are doing over at Canon!

And I think the GH2 is going to be popular among A LOT of people given what it addresses. Just as the AF100 is filling a HUGE void right now in the camera world. I'd say Sony beat them to a "video recorder" but Pansonic beat them at "Getting it"

And I think you brought up a good point. Having a good small B camera option is a good thing. We have 3 7Ds, 1 t2i and 1 5D. We have NO PROBLEM using the t2i for risky shots where camera damage could occur. Given the GH2 is obviously a worlds better than the 7D or t2i, It's a nice camera body to use in places that I wouldn't be comfortable using a $5k body that could get damaged.

I also see that B&H says the GH2 will be out in November.

 

[svecher]

Of course, Panasonic can implement any extensions to the AVCHD standard they please, as they did with the GF1's "AVCHD-Lite" 720p30 mode, packaged in a 60p wrapper.

Indeed. Personally, I was hoping that Panasonic implemented an AVCHD-Plus extension with 48Mbps max bitrate and 1080/50p or 60p modes. The latter is already present in TM700. The former could be featured in some obscure menu so as not to confuse the general public who only watch footage on their Viera TVs

However, if the dpreview article I quoted above is correct, the GH2's 1080i50 mode is not in fact a package that contains 25PsF video. It would actually be 1080i50 video, sampled at a vertical resolution of 540p at 50fps. Unlike 25PsF, 50i interlaced video cannot be legitimately post-processed into 25p progressive video.

Isn't that how HD broadcast cameras of the old worked -- shot at 50/60 Hz, scanning even/odd 540 lines each cycle? As I understand it, cameras with native progressive scan do not use that ugly method anymore. Typically, 2:2 pulldown is added to turn 24p/25 into 50i/60i. However, when you have 50/60 full frames per second to work with, it would certainly be possible to emulate the old interlacing method. You would just take odd fields from odd frames and even fields from even frames and discard the rest. That would be a major bummer and make 24 fps the only progressive option in 1080 mode. If that is the route taken by Panasonic, at the very least I would expect a menu option to turn off the "smooth-motion" bullcr%p.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

I read through this entire thread, but I may have missed the answer to this question:

Has anyone confirmed whether or not the GH2 can output live _AUDIO_ during recording? Either via the HDMI or USB/AV connector cable?

Live audio monitoring is super-important to me. Yes, I know I could use a external recorder, etc., etc., but I still want to know if the GH2 supports live _AUDIO_ monitoring?

 

[e-steve]

I haven't seen any mention of live audio monitoring or a headphone jack -- it's possible that the HDMI port will pass audio through as well...I have never used my GH1's HDMI port, but I'd assume that if the video playback to a TV with HDMI has audio then it's possible?

 

[tonpole]

lol, the big names got you all clamboring and fighting over the crap tech that existed a decade ago. Take a look around at the sensors that exist for machine vision cameras, you can record at least 2160p at 24fps with global shutter for a fraction of what panasonic and canon would charge to tack on a few features and a pretty case. For what you pay for a "professional" camera you could just as easily have a custom housing made and hire a engineering team to write the backend on it and be heads and tails above a RED ONE.

Really though, where do you think the difference in cost comes from between manufacturing a GENESIS and a GH1?


Marketing.

 

[zcream]

Which MVCs are you referring to ? The Pike cameras are 5K, and thats without recording setups.

lol, the big names got you all clamboring and fighting over the crap tech that existed a decade ago. Take a look around at the sensors that exist for machine vision cameras, you can record at least 2160p at 24fps with global shutter for a fraction of what panasonic and canon would charge to tack on a few features and a pretty case. For what you pay for a "professional" camera you could just as easily have a custom housing made and hire a engineering team to write the backend on it and be heads and tails above a RED ONE.

Really though, where do you think the difference in cost comes from between manufacturing a GENESIS and a GH1?


Marketing.

 

[Kin Lau]

Yeah, I think the GH2 is going to put a serious hurt on the 7D/550D/60D sales if the image quality is as good as it sounds. Not sure what they are doing over at Canon!

Not likely.. the 7D/550D/60D will sell in the order of over 1 million units combined, maybe even 2 million. The GH2 will be doing very well to crack 10% of that figure.

I have both the GH1 and the 7D, so I'm not biased either way, but keep in mind that sales of the 7D/550D/60D are based on stills performance, not video.

Even Panasonic's own G2 will greatly outsell the GH2, and it won't likely crack the top 10 DSLRs which are completely dominated by Canon and Nikon.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Not likely.. the 7D/550D/60D will sell in the order of over 1 million units combined, maybe even 2 million. The GH2 will be doing very well to crack 10% of that figure.

I have both the GH1 and the 7D, so I'm not biased either way, but keep in mind that sales of the 7D/550D/60D are based on stills performance, not video.

Even Panasonic's own G2 will greatly outsell the GH2, and it won't likely crack the top 10 DSLRs which are completely dominated by Canon and Nikon.

I was meaning in terms of those who are buying a camera for video more than photo from the point of release moving forward, if the features and performance are even better than the GH1, given the cost, I know A LOT of people who would switch when they see their image quality improve by so much. Granted, this is all dependent on the EOS adapter and how much it costs though. Some people will likely stay in the Canon camp because of their lens investment.

It's funny, I know NO ONE in real life (that's such a funny term) who has purchaed a 7D or 550D for photo, they've all been for video. Most of the people I know who have recently bought cameras for photo have been 5D or 1D.

 

[Satsuei]

I was meaning in terms of those who are buying a camera for video more than photo from the point of release moving forward, if the features and performance are even better than the GH1, given the cost, I know A LOT of people who would switch when they see their image quality improve by so much. Granted, this is all dependent on the EOS adapter and how much it costs though. Some people will likely stay in the Canon camp because of their lens investment.

It's funny, I know NO ONE in real life (that's such a funny term) who has purchaed a 7D or 550D for photo, they've all been for video. Most of the people I know who have recently bought cameras for photo have been 5D or 1D.

I guess everything is relative. I know several people who bought 7D's and have no interest in its video capabilities.

That said, I had a Canon 40D and a bunch of L lenses that got used about 3 times briefly since I bought my GH1 last summer. It was going to waste so this month I sold off all my Canon stuff.

Canon makes better still cameras. And their video capabilities are nothing to sneeze at, but it still behaves like an "add on" feature versus the GH1/GH2 where the camera was designed around being a hybrid camera from the very start.

 

[mcsmooth]

Ummm...the evidence for B-frames would be that they said on their powerpoint that they gave 20% better quality by using compression that looks at the next frame and the previous frame...they even showed a diagram. That is the textbook definition of a B-frame...it has nothing to do with things not being interlaced...which also will further raise the quality.

As for the power required, there's a reason they stuck a whole extra processor in this sucker.

Ha, totally didn't see the text at the bottom of the pic you referenced, and couldn't find the mention of it anywhere else. Nice find. I agree, I can't think of what else that could mean. Hopefully that slide was assuming 20% better at the same bitrate. My main point was simply that AVCCAM footage is easily more than 20% better than any non-B-frame codec. We also know that there are consumer camcorders that use B frames, but aren't quite at the same level. Regardless, this still sounds like a great improvement!


For PAL users asking about 25p... figure it is likely not going to happen on any camera that does also not do a 30p mode for NTSC. On the other hand, you can technically get a pseudo 30p by doing 80% slow in 24p mode, but it's not a real 30p recording mode. Another workaround may be to use a 1/30 shutter speed, though would also have it's drawbacks. Not sure if there is a 1/25 shutter.

I'm surprised they didn't bother doing faster versions of the fast motion modes, like 1000%, 10000%, etc, since that is easier to do, and that longer time span time lapse more uses. In one of the Japanese translations, they made it sound like the fast motion would be used for comedy. Has any Panasonic still camera ever had a built in intervalometer? Still, never a deal breaker when you can do it remotely.

The 40fps burst could certainly have it's applications. I am not familiar with this though, do burst modes have a consistent time between pictures? (As in, would there be an exact 1/40sec between each frame for smooth playback in post?) There is still 720p60, but I cannot attest to how well that holds out. I am curious if the 20% increase in picture quality is across the board or just for the new 24ps

In the AF-100 threads, people are constantly referencing bypassing the AVCCAM codec for an external HDMI recorder. If the live output is indeed a full 4:2:2 signal here, all similar codec complaints have the same solution.

 

[mcsmooth]

It's funny, I know NO ONE in real life (that's such a funny term) who has purchaed a 7D or 550D for photo, they've all been for video. Most of the people I know who have recently bought cameras for photo have been 5D or 1D.

I think a lot of people on this board would say the same thing... considering most of the people on here are into... well, video

I have to agree with Kin Lau that the majority of consumers buying these cameras are doing so for stills purposes, but even the people who say they never shoot video will still pay attention to those extra capabilities in case they do need/want to use it. Plus, there is no question that this market is booming from new business looking specifically for video use of these cameras. The manufacturers are clearly putting a lot of effort to address this. Half of the GH2's new features are video specific that many users asked for.

I personally am interested in one as a still camera, which happens to have bad-ass video (that should be somewhat comparable to the AF-100, but 1/6 the cost).

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

Has anyone confirmed whether or not the GH2 can output live _AUDIO_ during recording? Either via the HDMI or USB/AV connector cable?

Live audio monitoring is super-important to me. Yes, I know I could use a external recorder, etc., etc., but I still want to know if the GH2 supports live _AUDIO_ monitoring?

No one comfirmed it yet.
But it must be working. I don't know why audio must be disabled.

I am also very interested as my LCD monitor has headphone output.

 

[thebighappyface]

For those who will purchase the camera from Japan, will it work in the USA, and will it have english menues. Would one run into any problems with the cam in the US?