M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
It will. You are just doing it wrong.
GH3 Gh2/gh3 etc
- Thread starter flinty
- Start date
Rolf Silber
Veteran
@ Flinty, you're trying to do something which is normally done using optics ie: a telephoto or long zoom lens. ETC isn't moving any glass around, to get a tighter view of a distant object, it's just cropping out the middle of the sensor and as everybody has already said, accentuating any minor flaws that your lenses might have.
In short, get a bigger lens!
In short, get a bigger lens!
Rolf Silber
Veteran
And I may add: If you shoot in ETC mode with longer glass everything that disturbs the picture like "swimming" by atmospheric disturbances because of different hot/cold layers of air get's enhanced too .... my Sigma 170 - 500 looks somewhat okay in normal mode .... if you add ETC it can become real messy .... but also interesting, though. So ETC should only be used for "must have shots". Still I do like it at times...
stoneinapond
Veteran
C--- mine wont,if i could get close ups from 200mts as sharp as the cheap FZ150 i would ,I love my GH2 but its not stuck up my bum like some.
260mm with etc far too short for me
Yes i 100% agree with the GH2 for long distance close ups a bigger lens is the only answer.
Rolf Silber
Veteran
260 mm too short for you......??????? What do you shoot? If this is not far enough for you, go for a 300mm Nikon.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/30028vr.htm
You want awesome? Good. Then you have to pay awesome.
But you can not expect a lens to be both extremely fast and extremely long. Unless you go for something like this...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2006/10/1/zeiss1700f4
And why would you shoot portraits from 200 mts away???? Makes absolutely no sense unless you are a paparazzi - and then you should make enough money to buy one of the above.... ;-)
Wow man you sure dont read threads,the film i showed was with the eqivalent of 1326mm,wildlife filming is one of my favourite things and the GH2s etc is not up to it,BUT i do other filming as well for which the GH2 is great as long headless chicken filming is not used.
Where did portraits come from ? if your meen the Deer they or other wild life are only ones i want.
If it can fit i would except one as a gift http://www.dpreview.com/news/2006/10/1/zeiss1700f4
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I'm sorry but I consider this unrealistic expectations of the ETC feature. Perhaps it may not work for you ever but for many it is a great feature when used within certain limitations and ranges. Heck even the 100-300 Lumix lens can't get as far as you want with ETC. About the longest lens I would consider using with ETC in the native realm is the Olympus 75mm. You would need a 510mm lens to get that far with ETC and I doubt any would be a good match for ETC.
Personally I think my 20mm works very well with ETC but many of my other lenses such as the 14-42 and 45-200 do get a bit soft.
Rolf Silber
Veteran
You wrote "close up" which I thought you meant portraits becasue only now I understood that you mean "close up" of animals. Now: If you are in this market, then you have a problem. And ETC mode can help you a lot if you use it with the right lenses under the right circumstances. Which is not the 14 - 140 in your case. Buy some long, fast, primes or very expensive zooms. Or old ones like the Sigma 170 - 500. And that's just it. You can not defy physics and economics. But ETC can be helpful. Nothing more, nothing less.
We agree realy then,for long distance work etc is no use unless you dont mind a soft picture,the only time i can find any use for it is if i only have a short lens and for whatever reason need the extra lenght.
Tipota the longest lens i have for my GH2 is the 45-200 which is a very good lens imo if used with it own range.
Rolf Silber
Veteran
If you go for such extremes and want something affordable, you have to make compromises. My experience with the Sigma 170 - 500 (old manual version Nikon f-mount) are not that bad. If you combine such a stove pipe with a camera that shoots high ISO without producing too much noise it can get you somehwere if you manage panning with such focal lengths. I tried shooting swifts and a peregrin falcon with my Ag-Af in 50 p - that is an experience.....
Don't forget that the 14 - 140 very probably is so sharp because of digital sharpening and another twelve things the camera may do when it knows it has a Lumix lens attached and that may not apply when ETC mode is used. ETC is a crutch. As it is with crutches: Not really that nice but efficient if used properly.
Don't forget that the 14 - 140 very probably is so sharp because of digital sharpening and another twelve things the camera may do when it knows it has a Lumix lens attached and that may not apply when ETC mode is used. ETC is a crutch. As it is with crutches: Not really that nice but efficient if used properly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPrbbGOEVGQ
With my 45-200 and a couple of clearly visible etc clips[you tube hides half of any losses, on hd tv they show up much more].
Pesonaly large lenses that need support are not something i would personaly want.
mm 50P that is another story,for me who likes making blu ray its only recently compatable with certain players so the GH3s footage would need the pain staking task of conversion.
GrahamH
Well-known member
@flinty I'm sure THIS is your problem - i.e., the Lumix lenses are not particularly sharp optically. They are sharp when the raw optical resolution is enhanced pwith digital downsizing and lens corrections/sharpening. In ETC mode those digital processes are not being applied.
By the way I have a 45-200 Lumix, and also a 70-200 f2.8 Tamron. At 200mm in ETC mode, the Tamron blows the Lumix out of the water!
Ok maybe you could start another thread headed why are lumix lenses SOFT,it would be interesting,there are members like me who only use them but have not got involved here,i had a Tamron lens on a Canon DSLR and thought it was poor,i never kept it for my GH2.
One the subject of sharpness and ETC. As my big interests are nature and macro, I'm very interested in this. I've tried it out on a Canon 600D/T3i this year and I aim to switch over to m4/3 for next year. Even with the much lower resolution of the Canons I can still tell the difference between one of my sharper primes, and a consumer zoom.
It's easy to understand why consumer zooms and telephotos won't produce good resolution in ETC, when you think about what is going on. As it is a 1:1 take from the sensor, it is the same as viewing a full resolution still image at 1:1, per pixel level. Consumer telephoto zooms simply aren't critically sharp when you view a full resolution still file at 1:1, especially at their long end. So I'm not sure why people are surprised it looks soft in video. The only information the video has to work with in ETC mode, is what you can see at 1:1 with a full resolution still. In other words, as a rule of thumb all you have to do is to take a few full resolution stills 1:1 at the long end of the zoom, using the aperture you intend to use. If it doesn't look critically sharp, then you really need a sharper, and preferrably wider aperture lens for using in ETC mode.
Generally only higher grade zooms or telephotos are critically sharp when viewing still files at 1:1, especially near wide open.
The other problem is diffraction. The smaller the effective size of the sensor, the earlier diffraction softening kicks in. With the effective size of the sensor in ETC mode, consumer zooms will be in the diffraction limited zone when they are wide open. Unfortunately a lot of these zooms aren't at their best wide open, and anyway most are a bit softer at the long end.
Therefore to get the best out of a long lens in ETC mode, ideally it should have a fairly wide aperture, and be sharp wide open. Consumer telephoto zooms only appear sharp in your average still, or in normal video mode, because of the oversampling, and when they are not viewed at 1:1 full resolution. To get the best out of a consumer zoom you probably need to back off slightly from it's longest end, because they are normally quite a bit sharper at around 75% of their maximum focal length. Also avoid stopping down. Unlike an image taken from the full sensor, it won't get any sharper by stopping down slightly, because you are just increasing the diffraction softening effect by stopping down.
In addition with such long effective focal lengths the atmosphere between you and the subject can degrade the image, although this varies depending on conditions.
It's easy to understand why consumer zooms and telephotos won't produce good resolution in ETC, when you think about what is going on. As it is a 1:1 take from the sensor, it is the same as viewing a full resolution still image at 1:1, per pixel level. Consumer telephoto zooms simply aren't critically sharp when you view a full resolution still file at 1:1, especially at their long end. So I'm not sure why people are surprised it looks soft in video. The only information the video has to work with in ETC mode, is what you can see at 1:1 with a full resolution still. In other words, as a rule of thumb all you have to do is to take a few full resolution stills 1:1 at the long end of the zoom, using the aperture you intend to use. If it doesn't look critically sharp, then you really need a sharper, and preferrably wider aperture lens for using in ETC mode.
Generally only higher grade zooms or telephotos are critically sharp when viewing still files at 1:1, especially near wide open.
The other problem is diffraction. The smaller the effective size of the sensor, the earlier diffraction softening kicks in. With the effective size of the sensor in ETC mode, consumer zooms will be in the diffraction limited zone when they are wide open. Unfortunately a lot of these zooms aren't at their best wide open, and anyway most are a bit softer at the long end.
Therefore to get the best out of a long lens in ETC mode, ideally it should have a fairly wide aperture, and be sharp wide open. Consumer telephoto zooms only appear sharp in your average still, or in normal video mode, because of the oversampling, and when they are not viewed at 1:1 full resolution. To get the best out of a consumer zoom you probably need to back off slightly from it's longest end, because they are normally quite a bit sharper at around 75% of their maximum focal length. Also avoid stopping down. Unlike an image taken from the full sensor, it won't get any sharper by stopping down slightly, because you are just increasing the diffraction softening effect by stopping down.
In addition with such long effective focal lengths the atmosphere between you and the subject can degrade the image, although this varies depending on conditions.
GrahamH
Well-known member
As I said, Lumix lenses aren't soft in normal use; but as you yourself have found, they can be in ETC video mode.
admactanium
Well-known member
I'm not sure why you've become so defensive on the subject. Plenty of people here own the 45-200 and the 20 Lumix lenses. I own both of them and just recently tried shooting ETC mode on the 45-200. Yes, the images were soft but that's not because of the sensor or the camera body - it's due to the lens. The lenses are made to certain specifications for their intended use. I'm not offended by the suggestion that a $350 lens isn't as sharp as a $4000 lens.
ETC mode is essentially asking the lenses to be optically better than their original intent when designed. Could Panasonic make the lenses sharp enough to work very well in ETC mode? Possibly, but it would cost them much more time and the yields would probably be lower. That would translate to a rarer and much more expensive lens for all of us. Why go to that trouble and expense when probably less than 2% of Micro 4/3rd users even know what ETC mode does and how to access it? Despite being good lenses for their normal use, Lumix lenses are not the most fantastic optics in the world. They build them to fulfill the need of the system, which is to work well enough at a reasonable enough price while exposing a whole Micro 4/3rds sensor.
You've seen an example posted of ETC mode with very expensive glass that looks great. If that's not enough proof to you that the lenses are the determinant of image quality in ETC mode then I'm not sure what you would need to be convinced.