GH1 vs Red One vs Canon 5D Mk II footage comparison shoot out!

[commanderspike]

As the delay in outputting 1080i footage during playback via HDMI suggests, the GH1's hardware is limited. I don't think that Panasonic forgot to include it. I think their hands were tied by hardware and costs, plus prioritising the demands of the consumer market - and I don't think live HDMI out is very high on the list (unfortunately).

I also believe that this processing limitation is why we end up with 1080i and not 24p native or 1080p. The HDMI output on the GH1 is 720p or 1080i... it never hits the giddy heights of 1080p.

But again - this is stuff that will come over time, and the GH2 will be even more attractive to film makers and professionals, further negating the need for the Scarlet to exist at all.

Sadly, RED's strategy is as flawed as the GH1's compromised image processor.

The days of a robust AVCHD encoding chip able to handle an output from a 4/3rds size 14 megapixel sensor (scaled) is not quite with us yet but will be before Scarlet sees the light of day.

Another worry for RED.

 

[Barry_Green]

It means once the 2/3 and s35 ship we will see the GH1HMC hyprid vDSLRs with good codecs and audio start appearing

Yeah, but -- the existing lineup has already started shipping, and some could say we're even already in a second generation (manual controls, a dedicated HD movie-recording lens), and Scarlet hasn't shipped. And by the time it does, who's to say we won't be on a third generation from Canon/Nikon/Panasonic?

These companies are incentivized all on their own to make something bigger and better, because they're competing not only for your dollar, but your next dollar too. Panasonic wants DVX owners to upgrade to an HMC150. They don't do it by designing in obsolescence into the DVX (like Apple does, with their non-interchangeable batteries), but they do it by designing better more appealing products, and then bombarding you with marketing to convince you to buy it.

So those products will happen whether or not the Scarlet comes out.

The Red One hasn't changed anything about how Panasonic, Sony, Canon and JVC build their professional camcorders, has it?

I think the market will move along just fine, whether the Scarlet is there to push it or not.

Now, if Scarlet comes out with something jaw-dropping amazing and makes it an obvious "duh - no brainer" to go with theirs instead of the existing manufacturers, then yes, if the Pan/Sony/Canon/JVC sales all dry up, then yes they'll respond.

But they're going to innovate and improve things anyway. It's the only way they can get you to go back to the well.

 

[Kholi]

HDMI output is whatever. Composite should have been implemented. Or at least a single pin Component cable. Hell, even the little Kodak 720p video majigger can output a real-time, live 720p component signal.

 

[John Caballero]

I don't think they just threw some specs on paper and dreamed something up and then said... great, now lets try to build the sucker...

They had the Red One technology. I am sure they brilliantly thought that if they could shrink everything they would have a great little camera with the image power of its big brother. Nowadays thats how a lot of electronic equipment play out, small circuit boards, small appliance, big power. And that goes from cars to computers. Nothing new there.

 

[Ben_B]

Barry I totally agree on monitoring I forgot about that one!

Hoping: That can easily be fixed with a firmware update (maybe not HDMI but at least composite) so I'm hoping for that...not a huge factor when I bought it though. Panny claims HDMI out is not possible with the hardware if I recall but we know composite liveview out works just not when recording? right? haven't tried to use it yet but isn't there a key combination or something?

Audio stuff doesn't bother me, as I mentioned if you're doing sync-sound with an external recorder and a boom operator as I am often doing for narrative shorts while @ school (where you sometimes run into having too many people who want to help out, not too few!) I don't think of the sound issues as a big deal.

 

[Barry_Green]

Well for all talk of what Scarlet might be, all Panasonic Broadcast needs to do now is put the GH1 sensor and m4/3 lens mount in a pro-body, a P2 or a SDHC writer and live full HD out over HDMI so we can pick a field recorder / laptop / workstation for uncompressed files at a $4 - 5000 price point and they would probably sweep the just-below-cinema-market clean. World wide. They got all the parts, they just have to assemble it into one unit.

Agreed.

At least, for a few months. Then someone else will come along and find a way to trump it.

But this type of thing has happened before. Sony blitzkrieged everyone with the PD150, and Panasonic handed them their own butt cheeks right back with the DVX. We've had a hectic ride here with new announcements but nothing has truly dominated everything like the PD150 and DVX did.

A professional GH1 with professional controls all across the board, might just be the thing to do it.

At least, that's what I've been trying to convince them! Somehow, though, methinks a multibazillion-dollar company like them might have some good ideas of their own, so they may not need me chipping in from the sidelines.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I just don't think it'll play well with the consumers. $300 for a "cheese plate"? $250 for a handle?

I don't think the modules will be as expensive as people think they are going to be... Look at the price difference in the 2/3" Fixed and the 2/3" Fixed complete kit... which we have been told includes power, finder, and recording module... 750 for those three things at least... Using that (as that's all we can at this point) as a benchmark, you can start to get an idea that the modules will perhaps not be as expensive as people think b/c they are basing it off of current red one accessory pricing... Also, don't forget... since these modules all work across any brain, that means, they are going to sell an awful lot of them, meaning the prices can be lower per unit... theoretically.

Also, I've heard talk of a couple of different i/o modules for example... A more robust professional input/output module, and then a more affordable version. Probably likely to see the same thing with the battery module... You may have the red handle on one end... a one battery module, a 4 battery module, etc... at least judging from the renders.

But -- less attractive, to who?

Perhaps to alot of people who are holding onto their 1500 gh1 or whatnot when scarlet hits and is available and they realize they can sell it for a grand and get something that doesn't include the sacrifices and workarounds and has superior quality, and an upgrade path, etc. for a bit of extra money...

later,
Jason

 

[commanderspike]

Well for all talk of what Scarlet might be, all Panasonic Broadcast needs to do now is put the GH1 sensor and m4/3 lens mount in a pro-body, a P2 or a SDHC writer and live full HD out over HDMI so we can pick a field recorder / laptop / workstation for uncompressed files at a $4 - 5000 price point and they would probably sweep the just-below-cinema-market clean. World wide. They got all the parts, they just have to assemble it into one unit.

Yeah. But will their business plan allow it? What on-going investment programmes in the pro camcorder / R&D divisions will it affect?

Sometimes, even if you know all the right notes, playing them all in the right order is difficult

I am sure eventually Panasonic will merge their R&D departments together, as the consumer stuff improves further and the pro stuff reaches a plateau.

I find it hard to believe however that they haven't got something up their sleeve. Usually the technology trickles DOWN not up! The GH1's viewfinder comes from the pro video department. Surely the DSLR sensor technology will replace the video sensors they have at the moment, its just a question of business strategy unfortunately.

I am amazed the pro video cams have stuck to small sensors for this long. But then the GH1 sensor is a NEW thing. It's only just become possible to make a sensor like this and the mass market demanded it first.

 

[Barry_Green]

But again - this is stuff that will come over time, and the GH2 will be even more attractive to film makers and professionals, further negating the need for the Scarlet to exist at all.

Well, that's taking it very far. Who knows what Scarlet even is? Remember, the last time we saw an update from them, the spec sheet was dated December 2008.

When the original HVX200 came out, I ended my preview article with something like "the camcorder wars are over. Sony, JVC, and Canon, thanks for playing, now you can all go home." Pretty bold, but I think we can all agree that things have progressed beyond what the original HVX200 offered. So I'm not in any way counting out what the Scarlet might be. I just don't think the 2/3" version makes much sense anymore. But they could rock the world with things we're not even thinking of. The ball's in their court, certainly.

 

[J Davis]

Izzy was shot with a 35mm lens if I'm not mistaken, and that was the 3k 2/3" sensor that they shot it with. If I end up with a 2/3" interchangeable... I have been thinking that an affordable stop gap on the way to an S35 sensor is using cheap nikon glass or whatever, and building a nicer lens collection along the way. Crop factor and such is something I'd be willing to live with. Then, buy a new brain and already have all my modules, some decent lenses, etc..

Not sure how feasible that will ultimately be, and not really sure it's the path I want to take... But, I think of the dsmc line as something I can work my way up the ladder of. Or, down... Or, fill out with additional brains, etc... for various reasons.

later,
Jason

I was looking at nikon 35mm still glass as an alternative on the 2/3 scarlet a while back and came to the conclusion it isn't practical. Calculations in these last few posts.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=408274#post408274

I know izzy was rpp on 2/3 but at what crop factor. how do you shoot wide? Would love to see a 4/3 brain for the very reason you mention, collecting 35's for later use when s35 drops in price.

 

[Barry_Green]

HDMI output is whatever. Composite should have been implemented. Or at least a single pin Component cable. Hell, even the little Kodak 720p video majigger can output a real-time, live 720p component signal.

Agreed 1,000%. The lack of monitoring during recording is a huge oversight. I don't know how practical it would be for them to add it, or if there's some engineering reason why they can't, but they absolutely should rectify that if at all possible.

 

[Barry_Green]

but we know composite liveview out works just not when recording? right? haven't tried to use it yet but isn't there a key combination or something?

Yes, during preview. But it goes away when you hit record.

Audio stuff doesn't bother me, as I mentioned if you're doing sync-sound with an external recorder and a boom operator as I am often doing for narrative shorts while @ school (where you sometimes run into having too many people who want to help out, not too few!) I don't think of the sound issues as a big deal.

I do though. Because it means you've got to spend another $300 minimum before you have a well-rounded system. Yes, you can just plug a mic right in the mic jack, but -- you can't monitor audio levels, you can't disable the auto-gain, and you can't even listen with headphones! So that's a big shortcoming, to me. Then again, I thought sound was important enough that we put out a Sound Recording DVD before the much-more-clamored-for Lighting DVD...

 

[Ian-T]

Man..I make two posts...drive home from work...cook for the fam....and we end up at 18 pages (it took me over an hour to read everything and catch up). What the...??? This thread moves faster than running water.

 

[commanderspike]

I read an interview with Panasonic a while back, with the team leader for the G series. They allude all the time to aiming stuff at 'the consumer'.

The consumer doesn't demand such stuff like live HDMI out for monitoring, or even basic audio monitoring.

There is certainly no tech reason why they couldn't have put it in. It may have meant the GH1 costing more and taking longer to develop, for reasons that wouldn't help their consumer market share. So they had to kick it from the schedule.

I am sure we'll see these features - at a premium.

Who knows what Panasonic's strategy is? They have a gem in their hands, let's hope they cut it well.

 

[Barry_Green]

Perhaps to alot of people who are holding onto their 1500 gh1 or whatnot when scarlet hits and is available and they realize they can sell it for a grand and get something that doesn't include the sacrifices and workarounds and has superior quality, and an upgrade path, etc. for a bit of extra money...

Well, yes, definitely, and I endorse that idea wholeheartedly. That's what ebay and the DVXUser MarketPlace are for!

 

[Jason Ramsey]

But again - this is stuff that will come over time, and the GH2 will be even more attractive to film makers and professionals, further negating the need for the Scarlet to exist at all.

Yeah, I think that's an overly bold statement... RED is a player in the market now... like it or not... How much success or longevity they will have, only time will tell... But, there will always be competition, and there isn't gonig to be some camera that comes out and ends it all... even if there is... markets thrive on competition and innovation, and bank on our little gear whore selves buying up their new release every 6 months... They proobably hate me though... I get the bug from time to time... but, I'm just not really into the whole buy the latest greatest camera every 6 months or whatever... hence the appeal of a modular system that can grow with me... to me, anyways.

Later,
Jason

 

[Kholi]

Man..I make two posts...drive home from work...cook for the fam....and we end up at 18 pages (it took me over an hour to read everything and catch up). What the...??? This thread moves faster than running water.

J.R Hudson has an OLD term for what this thread has: Flow.

 

[commanderspike]

Man..I make two posts...drive home from work...cook for the fam....and we end up at 18 pages (it took me over an hour to read everything and catch up). What the...??? This thread moves faster than running water.

I think since the forum update, fewer posts fit on one page. I prefer it like it was before. A fast moving thread like this will end up running to page 1000!!

 

[Barry_Green]

I am amazed the pro video cams have stuck to small sensors for this long.

Why? Small sensors make a ton of sense for most video uses. There are whole regions of the marketplace where having something out of focus would be considered "not" a good thing! :thumbsup:

But then the GH1 sensor is a NEW thing. It's only just become possible to make a sensor like this and the mass market demanded it first.

I think this has taken pretty much everyone by surprise. And yes, this is largely thanks to Red, who showed that a large single sensor could be embraced wholeheartedly.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I think since the forum update, fewer posts fit on one page. I prefer it like it was before. A fast moving thread like this will end up running to page 1000!!

That's actually a setting you can control yourself... the default is 10 posts per page... but you can up that to something larger in your settings if you prefer...

lataer,
Jason