GH1 - Frame Rate Conversion Tests - 720 60p & 30p to 24p vs. HPX 170 1080 24p

Wouldn't you do the 720p60 to 720p24 (23.98) conversion, then drop the 720p24 (23.98) clip on a 1080p24 (23.98) timeline? That's what I've always done and it's worked great. I suppose you could also directly convert 720p60 to 1080p24, but I've never tried it. Does it make a difference?

It might. Scaling in FCP is pretty good compared to some NLE's. But who knows. Try it and see if it significantly increases your conversion time. Compressor will probably due a better job with all the scaling controls set to best, but again, FCP scaling is good.

I can't remember if I've updated the first part of the thread yet or not - but for most 720 60p I don't even convert. Just drop it in the timeline. I think with compressor doing the retiming you get weird Dali painting frames, hands with hoop shaped fingers, etc., whenever you have a lot of kinetic fast motion (like most of the machete vs. pipe fight). From 60p to 24 I'm just dropping in the NLE, for irregular, non constant motion it looks good and no weird frames. For any smooth constant motion like a car gldiing by or a dolly shot or a canoe floating by, that's when I'd use the time intensive conversion methods I outlined in the first page. For one thing, you need the smooth motion, that kind of instancs is where the slight jerkiness will show up if you just drop things in the timeline. For another thing you're less likely to get weird blended frames because the motion is constant so its easier for the software to interpolate what new made up frame should come betweem the two pre-existing frames.
 
Lately my workflow has been 720p60-->720p24p by dropping in Final Cut...then going back and judging shot by shot if some don't look good, and redoing those specific ones with the pure compressor method.

1080i/24p been doing pulldown removal with compressor (but I don't shoot 1080 much but will probably start.) I'm not usually on a time crunch so I can plan the encoding times in.
 
What happens when you drop a PAL 50p or 25p shot into a 24p timeline and export to NTSC 29.97? (Computer explodes?)
 
What happens when you drop a PAL 50p or 25p shot into a 24p timeline and export to NTSC 29.97? (Computer explodes?)

Actually it was a serious question. I'm shooting in a PAL region and need to also convert to NTSC and wanted to know if anyone tried this conversion method.
 
Going 25 to 24 and then 29.97 straight within a NLE like you suggest will either result in a badly stuttering clip or a mushy multiple frame-blended one depending of if you have frame blending on or off. Better to go straight from 25 to 29.97 if programme length is set in stone, it will still have a slight stutter or frame blending but as bad than the additive effect of your idea. Here in Europe in the past we often saw things done the other way: 24 fps first scanned to 29.97 with pulldown and then transferred to 25 - which looked just ghastly.
 
I would convert 25p to 24p frame-for-frame, and change the audio runtime length.

You can then add 3:2 pulldown to go to NTSC if necessary (if going to DVD, this step is not necessary, all DVD players support 24p files and will add pulldown when needed).

It'll look perfect.
 
How would it work with the 7D shot at 24p (23.976) and edited in a 24p timeline for both PAL & NTSC export?

The 25p frame-for-frame conversion sounds like the best idea I've heard yet to go from 25p pal to 24p.
What is the best procedure to do that? Audio adjustment will just be about 4%.
 
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I already said a couple of times that 25 to 24 frame-for-frame and then go to 29.97 plus add pulldown is the best option unless one needs to fill a exact timeslot but I can concur once more :)

I don't know what options exist on PC. On OSX doing it in Cinema Tools is a very easy and fast process and any embedded audio just follows video. Some nitpickers thinks the 4% shift in pitch must be fixed and if so that's a pretty straightforward thing to do in most audio editors.
 
I have a documentary project coming. Obviously, it will be a real hassle to convert each clip from 720 60p to 24p in compressor before we even start editing.

What about dragging the 60p clips to a 30p timeline in fcp? That will give me a 30p output for DVD distribution. Then I can export the edited timeline to 24fps via Compressor if we need to make a film print.

Do you think it is the most streamlined and sensible workflow for such project? Am I going to run into trouble and get motion artifacts when I export to 24fps?

thx
 
My project has to be shot with a GH1 at 1080/24p and edited with FCP 6.01

my question is: if I my second cam is a GF1 which only shoots the maximum size of 720p ( am not sure what frame rates) and placed the clips in the 1080/24p timeline which my GH1 originally had, how will it affect the Gf1 clips, will it be pixelized or cropped? How do I integrate the GF1 in terms of frame rates and lookingeven in my timeline?
 
Well, that's a challenge. The GF1 only shoots 720/30p. That doesn't match either of your requirements (1080p and 24p). I don't think a GF1 is going to mix in very well at all.

I guess you have a few choices: you could shoot 720/30 and try to convert it to 1080/24, but I think that's gonna look pretty lousy. Or, you could shoot 720/30p on both of them, they'll match great, but they won't meet your deliverable requirement -- so then you can ask the client if it MUST be in 24p... you can upscale 720p to 1080p with little effort and it'll probably look okay, but changing 30p to 24p is not that easily accomplished.

Or, you can try to get a second GH1 as the B-camera...

If you have a GH1, you can try it out for yourself; put it in MJPG mode and that's 720/30p, so just try putting it in the timeline next to a 1080/24p clip and see if you're satisfied with the results...
 
I did just that put it in the timeline,looks ok but had to slow down the 720p clip by using the speed setting of FCP so it matches(more or less) since GF1 was shooting in 30fps..I slowed it down to 80 to look normal.The client is going to project this on a big cinema screen...am just afraid that the clips of GF1 outputted to 1080 might pixelize? I wont see the difference in my monitor but will it show in the big screen?
 
speed setting will give you slow motion

FCP will auto scale up the 720 footage to match the 1080 and it will do a decent job.

If the GF1 is anything like the GH1 there may be all sorts of weirdness going on that will be accentuated once you blow it up though. So make sure you're getting a clean image with plenty of light without pushing the ISO too high.

Just dropping it on the time line will convert it to 24p as outlined in the methods at the beginning of this thread. For non fluid motion it will probably look OK. For fluid stuff it will look jerky - if you shot a hockey puck slowly sliding across ice it will now look jerky - if you shot someone having a coniption fit or talking it probably wont look noticebly jerky.

If you shot something that can be converted to slight slow mo - which is what using the speed function will do, i.e, anything without dialogue (can't do this unless you slow the dialogue down too) then you are golden in terms of the frame rate conversion. It will be flawless 24p but it will be a slight slow mo compared to the source footage.

So if it's something that can be in slight slow mo, and you shoot it incredibly clean, you might get away with it.
 
thanks a lot..would probably need the GF1 shots to service inserts or voice over without lip sync. Its also very handy being small in size so i can set it up where the bigger GH1 cannot.plus I have started to use nikon prime lenses on the GF1 that seems to produce sharper and a greater depth of field when apertures are set to minimum.

You are right that 720 /30p scales itself to 1080 in a FCP 24p timeline. I will try and test that mix (720 and 1080) into a dvd and project it on a much bigger screen and watch for that weirdness you mentioned that may appear.

Thanks again....
 
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quick q I can't get a straight answer to anywhere else... what shutter speed do I shoot in if I'm using AVCHD 720p 60fps? Thanks! I'm shooting a documentary and am about to buy a 2nd GH1 and I want to make triple sure I'm doing everything right. Oh... and what shutter speed to use if I'm doing slo-mo? Thanks again.

-Dan
 
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