GH1 Conspiracy Theories

[deltoidjohn]

Honestly, I don't buy the 'more complex you make something' or targeted for idiot consumers argument, because right off the bat, the GH1 was completely too complex and unfriendly in 1080p mode on ANY computer even for ADVANCED computer users and video people. The only way to play it was to hook up it's mini hdmi to a monitor and if you wanted to see it on a computer you were sh&^ out of luck because it wouldn't play on Wndows xp, nor vista, nor would it play on mac... WTF were they thinking with THAT idea? The software that came with it to import the video was also GOD awful.

Thank god win 7 came along and played back avchd beautifully and then the hack came along and doubled or tripled the quality of the images... but the camera was a complex nightmare for any amateur video user right off the bat. You expect to hook it up with your USB and see your videos, and you couldn't... so how it was targeted for 'consumers' is beyond me cause I had a hard time with it and I'm a tech head... consumers are supposed to know they are going to need Neoscene cineform (another $130.00 cost) to do anything with their video? Consumers are supposed to know they not only can't EDIT it but they can't SEE it on any computer?

Thank God for win 7 and thank God for the hack. I love it and love the 24p native avchd and I have not been getting camera freezes or anything.. knock on molded plastic... I played it on a 10,000 lumens HD projector on a cinema screen and I wanted to cry holy joy.

But this isn't just a GH1 issue - pretty much all consumer camcorders these days use AVCHD and have the same challenges when it comes to playback and editing. I think these cameras are disinged on the basis that 90% of users will shoot something with it, watch it once on their TV via HMDI or maybe use the included software to burn a DVD, and then forget about it and never watch it again.

As for the original question, at the time of the GH1's release, no other Panasonic consumer camcorders shot AVCHD at anything higher than 17mbps. 24mbps was reserved only for their prosumer cameras. So the GH1 was pretty much following the trend. It's just that the AVCHD @ 17mbps wasn't implemented as well in the GH1 as it was in other camcorders.

 

[Blackout]

I think it was purposely crippled. I think it would have been easy to allow multiple settings or have it run a speed test on the card when it puts it in. I wonder how Panasonic is responding to this whole Tester13 hack deal. Do they want to hire him or sue him?

What is the top out spec for AVCHD? I mean I have mine at the 'C' settings and the largest spike I have seen was 56mbits when watching the data rates in vlc player as it plays. I know I have heard some people going up to 70mbit in mjpeg but to me, maybe I'm crazy, but the mjpeg doesn't look as good.. I get that it's more 'editable' but.. well... it looks weird to me.

 

[Cavemandude]

I guess but how many people had a Panasonic Blu-Ray player? Would it work on any blu-ray player? All my home theater systems run off PCs.

Anyone with $100 does since all they have to do is buy one. Certainly the cheapest and easiest way to watch native GH1 files that doesn't tie up your much more expensive GH1 or PC. Handy for playing back and testing Blu-ray discs if you decide to author those also.

Another much more pricey option is the Panasonic TC-P42G25 42" Class Viera® G25 Series 1080p Plasma TV, other models too. The AVCHD capable SD card slot is built-in so nothing to hook up. Just under $1000. Would be nice to use on set to check shots instead of the GH1, even has speakers.

Web page link:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-...P42G25.O_11002_7000000000000005702#tabsection

Brochure:

http://www2.panasonic.com/match-maker/assets/pdf/viera/2010/VieraG25SeriesPlasma.pdf

Panasonic has certainly thought out how and given solutions for playing back their AVCHD native files.

Randy

 

[Cavemandude]

I think it was purposely crippled. I think it would have been easy to allow multiple settings or have it run a speed test on the card when it puts it in. I wonder how Panasonic is responding to this whole Tester13 hack deal. Do they want to hire him or sue him?

What is the top out spec for AVCHD? I mean I have mine at the 'C' settings and the largest spike I have seen was 56mbits when watching the data rates in vlc player as it plays. I know I have heard some people going up to 70mbit in mjpeg but to me, maybe I'm crazy, but the mjpeg doesn't look as good.. I get that it's more 'editable' but.. well... it looks weird to me.

Panansonic had to follow their own AVCHD licensing specifications that they created with Sony. Here is a link to that website that has an overview of the specs:

http://www.avchd-info.org

"The use of AVCHD and AVCHD Lite trademark is allowed to the products in accordance with AVCHD format specification license"

Randy

 

[Camera Expert]

-- Tester 13 is actually authorized Panasonic staffer(s) releasing the hack for viral marketing benefits without the responsibility if a feature is not quite 100% ready for prime time?
Love that one.

To disprove that particular theory, he also wants the NEX5 to be fully hacked. Why would a Panasonic staffer want to make a competing Sony camera better?

 

[deltoidjohn]

I think it was purposely crippled.

Purposely crippled? No.

Purposely limited? Yes, definitely.

Almost every camera is limited for some reason or another - perhaps for techinical reasons, marketing puropses, licensing reasons, etc, etc. If manufacturers did not impose limitations you would end up with all sorts of incompatible or unstable equipment - hence the reason why we have the AVCHD standard which tops out at 24mbps, even though H.264 can go alot higher.

As for complaining that they didn't give us options of quality modes, you are obviously misinformed. The GH1 has three different options for AVCHD recording and 2 MJPEG options so we had the choice between smaller file sizes (AVCHD) or easier editing (MJPEG). They even recommend in the manual to use MJPEG if you want to edit on a computer. Many people were not happy with the highest quality modes they gave us, so they went about improving them by lifting some of the limitations imposed by Panasonic - at the expense of some simpicity and compatability, which for most of us on this board is not as much of an issue as for the average user.

What does it matter anyway? The camera took good videos before, and now it takes GREAT videos, so what is there to complain about?

 

[DJDecay]

We are using the GH1 as movie camera with high performance cards. Panasonic has to accommodate users who mix in stills (potentially causing fragmentation), have lower performance cards, etc...

If panasonic had decided to market the GH1 as a movie camera that requires class 10 cards they probably would have programmed it with these higher bitrates.

Even if Panasonic loves what we are doing - they probably can't offer this higher performance themselves.

Chris

I don't think they love it at all, maybe the media exposure and buzz about the GH1 kicking Canon in the butt, but I'm certain there is a gag order in the entire company Stateside and Japan not to comment on any of the firmware modifications.

Believe me right now they are afraid of a TON of technicality incompetent people buying this camera specifically to hack it. I'm sure someone is printing warning labels to stick onto retail boxes as we speak, there's also that Video Tax thing in EU (30min limit) that is mod bypasses.

If Tester13/Vitali resides in a country that is a WPO signatory and prohibits reverse engineering they can dispatch a cease and desist. If not, they could just sit back and say nothing. Since the firmware patch is still not a complete stable solution for certain things, they'll wait, and then issue a statement, maybe.

 

[DJDecay]

Consumer division making the camera work consistently with cheap SDHC cards so their users won't return the cameras and talk about how bad they were because they locked up when using some cheapo knock off class 6 card at class 2 speed, giving Panasonic a bad name, and losing a ton of sales?

Ehh, possibly. I'm sure that most products carrying the SD-Anything name get some coin into Panasonics pockets, and most consumer electronics stores are "trained" to sell you the most expensive overpriced storage media when you're making your buying decision. It's we who shop around on the net for the cheapest fastest. The bloke we talk about who waltzes into B&H and says I'm going Yachting and need a cam, is the bloke who buys a Lexar Class 10 or a Sandisk eXtreme 3 and a leather carrying case and two extra batteries of other accessories with the cam.

I think it was done since nothing "better" could be put to market at the time of design, which (subtract 1 year) is the time of product release. Such that a year before GH1 hit the market, nobody was thinking that Main Profile 4.0 was crippling, and running Main Profile at higher rates than 17Mbps is outside of codec spec and could not be guaranteed to inter-operate with the blue-ray player or some consumer end video editing system the end-user might sick it into afterward (that same dude that bought it for his Yachting trip.)

So the R&D for the product was misdirected, until photogs picked up their DSLR's and started shooting video with them. - No not us Video/Film folks buying their cameras but the other way around... (There's thousands more of them....)

 

[Chris Light]

"they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!"
"they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!""they're all gonna laugh at you!"

 

[Psynema]

only thing that worries me is what bitrate the GH2 will have?

If it's a similar deal with the GH1, using lowerbitrates for SD cards, then that may hurt sales, but they kind'a have to do something now to make the GH2 worth buying.

 

[Zissou]

well, just look at the complexity of achieving the best possible shot with various settings; its rather complex and hit-and-miss in the higher bitrates; no big-name company would release a product that the average consumer would peg as 'buggy' considering it only shot this at that setting etc etc.

stability and useability are key, a homogenous reliable bitrate and settings appeal to the most profitable audience, ie the average consumer looking to move up from a P&S. chances are Tester13 is not outdoing what panny themselves could have done, and they probably could have done it better and faster, IF they were targeting THIS audience.

remember, this is basically reverse-engineering/hacking, not like holding a 35mm lens backwards in front of an SLR/DSLR to fake macro shots. i see no conspiracies, but instead a very cautious and methodical build-up to what will hopefully be a long-awaited break from the 'big two' of DSLR/SLR's. i think panasonic is doing the right thing, with both their DSLR with HD series, the AF-100 upcoming, and surely some sort of HVX/HMC/HPX replacements.

i fall into a middle category; i WOULD buy and hack a GH1, but its not yet stable, i dont really have the time, i dont want the random errors, issues, or cut-outs, but i am not comfortable with a low bitrate codec, and i can afford 'better' solutions right now, so i sit back and wait.

if Tester13 or others come upon (and i HIGHLY respect the work hes done and the commitment and time others have spent on this) a rock solid firmware (and the GH1 comes down a bit in price more) i'll gladly grab one just to play with; there is a LOT of potential, and i hope it pans out, but the average target consumer panasonic has/had in mind does NOT care, does not research, and will NOT hack their big investment in HD/DSLR right now; as of now the GH13 is a cult following, and will likely expand yet remain a cult movement, and that is a great thing that panasonic is likely watching; they have a lot of potential, but cant compromise their current and future lineup, and again, when the AF-100 debuts, IF it is hackable, will likely follow in the GH1/13 footsteps, BUT again would be an indie/cult deal; mostly due to the stability issues the GH13 community is encountering. this really is new territory, the HDSLR/AF-100/GH13 side of things, and while it is building and has great potential in many directions, there will only be, in the end, a few viable options, and economics and the market dictates where research resources are funneled.

I used to REALLY be into the development/hacking of windows mobile devices, ie smartphones (mostly HTC devices) and i thought that was DEFINITELY the future of mobiles, alas the iPhone and now Droid is killing that side of things. While hybrids do exist, generally iphone/droid related mods now dominate. The same will happen with the 4/3's, HDSLR, and camcorder markets. they are mingling, hybridizing, but they will eventually take a firmer direction, and discretion being the better part of valor (and profit being the driving force in sales), there will, soon enough, be a definitive direction of this emerging hybrid market. remember, this is really only the 1st gen of HD-SLR's.

 

[DJDecay]

only thing that worries me is what bitrate the GH2 will have?

If it's a similar deal with the GH1, using lowerbitrates for SD cards, then that may hurt sales, but they kind'a have to do something now to make the GH2 worth buying.

Knowing Panny's knack for not serializing names for cameras I'd bet it would be called Lumix GX-Z7 or something like it .

Most likely it will be at 24Mbps for AVC but there is an extra license they'd get. But the point of this is to do it with low power hardware (not in software) - ala the chip that decodes H.264 on the iPad in hardware - so the Coder ASIC choice is a big one as it influences everything from firmware to P.C.B. layout.

More likely than not if Viera Link was a utter disaster, possibly we'll get somewhere. If it was not. then we'll get 17Mbps again.

 

[KevinJ]

Not all in your statments I agree

Not all in your statments I agree

IF you go overboard with the hack and don't have a proper SDHC class card to support it, yes you get freeze. If you put in a class 2 card and expect to get 70mbs, yes you can run into problems.

I used Eric Thompson's settings as he stated, no freezing or issues with a class 6 card:

http://vimeo.com/12606679

Manufacturers don't want alot of bugs but why does Panasonic and everyone else put out patches? To fix bugs!

I agree on pocket devices. Camera manufacturers have to come out with some things that the iPhone and other's can't do.. Look at Sony with sweep panorama to appeal to a mass market. The goal of the camera market is shoot-in-the-dark ISO levels since the pixel war is really over. Global shutter, 120fps 1080p is coming, touch screen is not new but new to DSLR and M4/3.

Also manufactures have to contend with price and component manufactures have to give better processing capabilities at better price points to support these features for better in-camera compression and editing.

well, just look at the complexity of achieving the best possible shot with various settings; its rather complex and hit-and-miss in the higher bitrates; no big-name company would release a product that the average consumer would peg as 'buggy' considering it only shot this at that setting etc etc.

stability and useability are key, a homogenous reliable bitrate and settings appeal to the most profitable audience, ie the average consumer looking to move up from a P&S. chances are Tester13 is not outdoing what panny themselves could have done, and they probably could have done it better and faster, IF they were targeting THIS audience.

remember, this is basically reverse-engineering/hacking, not like holding a 35mm lens backwards in front of an SLR/DSLR to fake macro shots. i see no conspiracies, but instead a very cautious and methodical build-up to what will hopefully be a long-awaited break from the 'big two' of DSLR/SLR's. i think panasonic is doing the right thing, with both their DSLR with HD series, the AF-100 upcoming, and surely some sort of HVX/HMC/HPX replacements.

i fall into a middle category; i WOULD buy and hack a GH1, but its not yet stable, i dont really have the time, i dont want the random errors, issues, or cut-outs, but i am not comfortable with a low bitrate codec, and i can afford 'better' solutions right now, so i sit back and wait.

if Tester13 or others come upon (and i HIGHLY respect the work hes done and the commitment and time others have spent on this) a rock solid firmware (and the GH1 comes down a bit in price more) i'll gladly grab one just to play with; there is a LOT of potential, and i hope it pans out, but the average target consumer panasonic has/had in mind does NOT care, does not research, and will NOT hack their big investment in HD/DSLR right now; as of now the GH13 is a cult following, and will likely expand yet remain a cult movement, and that is a great thing that panasonic is likely watching; they have a lot of potential, but cant compromise their current and future lineup, and again, when the AF-100 debuts, IF it is hackable, will likely follow in the GH1/13 footsteps, BUT again would be an indie/cult deal; mostly due to the stability issues the GH13 community is encountering. this really is new territory, the HDSLR/AF-100/GH13 side of things, and while it is building and has great potential in many directions, there will only be, in the end, a few viable options, and economics and the market dictates where research resources are funneled.

I used to REALLY be into the development/hacking of windows mobile devices, ie smartphones (mostly HTC devices) and i thought that was DEFINITELY the future of mobiles, alas the iPhone and now Droid is killing that side of things. While hybrids do exist, generally iphone/droid related mods now dominate. The same will happen with the 4/3's, HDSLR, and camcorder markets. they are mingling, hybridizing, but they will eventually take a firmer direction, and discretion being the better part of valor (and profit being the driving force in sales), there will, soon enough, be a definitive direction of this emerging hybrid market. remember, this is really only the 1st gen of HD-SLR's.