Getting to the bottom of the noise complaints - is it h.264 uncompression software?

It is quite confusing to read all the posts about the noise matter. Can you fairly say that this codec of the AF100 sucks or that the AF100 is not ready yet.
What if I use an intermediate codec like Cineform Neoscene???
Will the noise level be ok?
 
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Kenny_G said:
It is quite confusing to read all the posts about the noise matter. Can you fairly say that this codec of the AF100 sucks or that the AF100 is not ready yet.
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Neither. Read some user reports. The AF100 is totally ready, it produces gorgeous footage, and people are now settling in on settings that deliver the kind of look that they want. If you want it utterly noiseless, you can get that.
 
Barry_Green said:
Neither. Read some user reports. The AF100 is totally ready, it produces gorgeous footage, and people are now settling in on settings that deliver the kind of look that they want. If you want it utterly noiseless, you can get that.
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Yes please. I'll take mine utterly noiseless. What's the setting for that?
 
200 ISO, detail -7, v-detail -7, coring +7, cine-V gamma, master ped -2, skin dtl ON, and NORM2 matrix.

Just be aware that with all things, there are tradeoffs here. You'll get completely entirely utterly noiseless footage, but it will look soft (unless you sharpen it in post) and you may see more gradient banding (noise helps dither out and diminish the appearance of banding in 8-bit recordings, if you strip out all the noise you may see more banding).

There's no free lunch. Pick your preferences. I personally ride with detail -4, v-detail -2, coring +2, master ped -2, norm2, and whatever gamma makes sense for the shot. There might be a tiny bit of grain, but... it's tiny. Extremely acceptable. And the images look sharper, and the banding is minimized.
 
CineMan1 said:
I used MpegStreamClip on the file I downloaded from Vimeo which is a H.264 Quicktime.
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Well if the file isn't an MTS file, it's not the file directly off the camera. I know, because I own an AF100. Someone already converted that file to MOV and if they used clipwrap, it's going to look horrible in QT, VLC or Final Cut Pro. In Premiere, it might work strangely. I am working with the ClipWrap developer to figure out what is going on. I will also summarize what the problem is when we are done.
 
editman said:
After carefully looking at fine details I don't think Norm2 is good. It smears the image to much.
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My initial findings showed that this had the least noise, now i use Norm 1. More noise, but a little less magenta and more natural looking me thinks. I'm also keeping DRS1 on, helps reduce posterization and gives a little extra without really adding a horrible level of noise. Keeping detail low to reduce aliasing and sharpening in post.

I am not experiencing a high level of noise, but I am seeing a very noisy blue channel if i shoot tungsten balanced with low levels of daylight. Still working on that.
 
Is there a way to embed tables? might be neat to collect people's favorite settings in like a week and throw them in table with a short note of why those settings are preferred and then display them so others can look at them. I don't mind creating a table, I just take screenshots out of excel, but would be neat nonetheless.
 
I don't know if this was covered. Didnt see it. I'm looking at a live feed SDI out to a Panasonic BTLH 1700 broadcast monitor and I can for sure see noise in the darker areas. Grant it, I'm just shooting at a pen cup on my desk under a 50w tung lamp. But should there be noise at even 400 in the blacks? Sorry, maybe I'm crazy, but I feel I'm looking at a sharper HVX. Is it possible people are having problems with noise because of a handful of defective cameras? Perhaps I could be to picky. But Barry and others, I get the feeling from your description of the footage your talking about, that noise is almost not there. Which leads me to believe something could be wrong with my camera. I've owned and shot extensively with every little Panasonic camera from the 100A - HVX200 - HPX170 and it seems this AF100 I have has noise. I saw someone post night footage at 1600 and I didn't see noise like I see from my live feed. BTW, using quality cables and a calibrated monitor. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks
 
What settings are you using?
Some matrix and gamma settings are going to introduce more noise than others.
If you can list your settings, it would help others to be able to help you get to the bottom of what you're seeing.

I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that your camera is faulty.
 
Grant it, I'm just shooting at a pen cup on my desk under a 50w tung lamp.
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G.I.G.O

Expose properly with properly lit subjects and .. guess what happens..?

See all the tests ( screen grabs/ footage etc ) all done with controlled "out of the box " and Default Settings. (Including Barry Greens lates ISO - Noise tests)

There is nothing wrong with your camera. Relax. ( Read between the lines ... there is a lot wrong with your testing technique with a professional camera)
 
Yes, Of course, I understand the testing tech here. And proper lighting is a must. ( was a professional gaffer for 10 years). Here is my thing. I bought this camera to get my clients away from using my 5D. I hate using it for the obvious reasons. But I have to get it somewhat close to the clean I get from the 5D or my clients are not going for it. I also understand that's a tall order to. But my first impression is that this camera (AF100) is just a little cleaner in the blacks then my HPX170. Sorry guys, but that how it seems. And if I'm lighting a scene or an interview and I'd like some black areas in the frame, the noise can be problematic. Am I the only one who Believes this? Trust me, I want this camera to be awesome! And it is for the other obvious reasons. I wish the 5/7D never came out so people wouldn't compare the two. Be that is it may, that's the reality of it. I will continue to fiddle and keep a watchful eye on this post and see if I can work this out.

Thanks
 
Oh, sorry. I wont jump to the conclusion my camera is faulty. But hey, I had to throw it out there just in case. Today, I will do some extensive testing and post my findings. I will be using my broadcast monitor for the evaluation. I know that monitor can be a little noisy, however I have references from the 170, 5D, 7D, Varicam. As soon as I'm finished, I will post.

Thanks everyone.
 
Regpin, you really need to post what settings you are using in your scene file, or, if you are using a default. I can get my AF100 to be noiser or cleaner than my 7D depending on the settings I make. If you post what you are using, we can explain what you are seeing as many of us have already gone down the path. I do not like the default settings in the camera, to me they are too noisy in the grays, but, it was easily remedied while retaining sharpness better than my 7D. While the 7D is not as noise clean as the 5D, they aren't that far off from my tests.
 
Rick Burnett said:
Regpin, you really need to post what settings you are using in your scene file, or, if you are using a default. I can get my AF100 to be noiser or cleaner than my 7D depending on the settings I make. If you post what you are using, we can explain what you are seeing as many of us have already gone down the path. I do not like the default settings in the camera, to me they are too noisy in the grays, but, it was easily remedied while retaining sharpness better than my 7D. While the 7D is not as noise clean as the 5D, they aren't that far off from my tests.
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Curious as to which settings you dialed in the camera to achieve this?
 
I don't have my camera with me at the moment, but search for editman's settings. Me and him are using almost identical settings. I am using the FLO matrix although I am thinking of using more NORM2, I use the CINE-V curves, detail I set between -5 and -7, coring at +2. I forget what the rest are. I shot the identical scenes with both the 7D and AF100 and could look specifically at the noise in the image on the same exposure and the AF100 had substantially less noise. So much so that I am currently experimenting still with the detail setting and curves to put a little noise back in to match the 7D since I have material to shoot that will mix both together.
 
The keys to getting the lowestnoise are:
1) Use a detail level as low as you can stand; many folks are happy with -5 to -7
2) Using Norm2 as your matrix will dramatically lower the amount of perceived noise
3) Use a coring level as high as you can stand, although I find that +2 is more than adequate when paired with the other recommendations
4) Using either cine-V or b.press gamma will lower the appearance of noise
5) Use a slightly lower master pedestal, usually -2 to -3, to get proper deep black levels

You can make the AF100 practically noiseless at 3200 ISO if you use those recommendations.

Of course, there is no free lunch, what you gain in no-noise performance, you may sacrifice in a little image sharpness and seeing more visible 8-bit banding. Adding a little bit of detail level overcomes both issues.
 
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