Getting paid for gear in freebie shoots

Gohanto

Gohanto

Veteran
I recently volunteered to run location sound for a 48 hour film crew. No one's getting paid and I just thought it'd be fun.

One question though, they were asking about gear and I volunteered the use of some of my own stuff (figuring it was the deal where they just needed to get what they could and be done with it), but when I asked about finding a hyper for indoor shots (I only have a shotgun), they just said they were renting it through a rental house.

Now, I don't mind volunteering as I like to help out at all, but is it reasonable that I should be getting something for the gear I am bringing since that saves them from renting it? (As I originally assumed they didn't have money and simply would've gone without had it not been for me, largely because they're even asking crew to help pay for food...)

At this point it's late in the game and it's not worth bringing up, but more for future reference...
 
I'd say volunteer the time and rent them the kit. If they were going to rent the gear anyway, it's not like they can suddenly say they don't have the money to rent your gear.
 
I did the 48hour film fest last year.
You actually have to have your whole crew sign a contract saying they didnt get paid.

Gear wise,
My own personal opinion is because its a not for profit venture, it's supposed to be for the pure
love of making a movie is..
you shouldnt be charging for your kit either.

Obviously if this was a job where the producers were planning on making money with this
i would get paid..
for this.. consider it a favor.

In the future you never know if you're going to need their help on your own project.

I do think the person putting it together should be providing the food though.
The guy I did it for spent hundreds on crafty and meals.
 
Wear and tear on equipment is a cost. It's not profit if you're just covering yourself on that front. It depends on the equipment your bringing as well. And, more importantly, your relationship with the filmmakers. They might not interpret it the same way you do.
 
I would only feel comfortable charging for rental gear if I would be comfortable working with crummier gear provided from someone else.
It's definitely something to bring up in the very early stages before the decision is made on what gear to use.
 
There's a little dance in the video world... that it would pay for you to learn early. (pun intended)

The simple fact is that sound gets little to no respect in a production, and it's usually the last consideration in budget. I think that's slowly changing... but we still have a long way to go. So now is a good time to realize that you have something valuable that nobody wants to pay for :)

You will have friends that do projects that you'll help on... and you'll know the deal based on the normal, casual conversations that you'll have leading up to the project. You'll all get on the same page as you talk about what you (the soundguy) OWNS, and also think will be needed for the gig.

If it's a gig for friends, they will do something nice for you at the time, or reciprocate later... or whatever... They're FRIENDS... so the situation works out on it's own with everybody having the same friendly understanding based on those conversations... and the fact that you do things for friends... and they do things for you. If they're good friends who aren't making money on a project... or are taking a really long shot... it's a no-brainer... you never charge them anything.

Where it gets a little funny... and "the dance" is involved... is when people that you barely know have specific goals (or pay coming) on a project. There is a worldwide community of filmmakers with little to no money... but that still want to make good. These people (nothing negative here... just saying THESE people) have to do whatever they can to get the best results for the least amount of money. I have RARELY worked on a low-to-no-budget project that truly had NO budget... usually you'll show up and they got a couple HMI or something that they decided they couldn't live without.

Typically the "director" is wanting to advance their career the most... and he's USUALLY the person who was trying to talk you into working for free in the first place. If this is a person you know you'll want to build a relationship with, or you know that your effort will be reciprocated (<super important point) then you may want to play it cool and again... work for absolutely nothing.

At this stage... I only work for free if the person making the film is a GOOD friend (not just a friend, but a GOOD friend)... or if it's a professional that I've worked with before, and I know that I'm cementing PROFESSIONAL relationships (<another super important point)... I've worked for DPs that were doing their own friends a favor... and asked if I would help them do a friend of a friend favor for no pay... even though on a normal gig this guy would get $700/day and I would get $400/day... because it moves me up his call list of goto guys, when he lands a paying gig.

So to sum it up... if I'm dealing with the vast low-to-no-budget filmmaking community and there are no GOOD friends involved... and there are no professionals involved that I want to cement a better relationship with... I ONLY do the gig if there's a chance of developing one of the two situations above... and I also ONLY do the gig if they want to pay regular rental rates on my gear... which means a minimum of $150/day.

Oh... and the most important point is to never think future promises = pay.

The "do this to get that" selling technique is used by churn and burn filmmakers that are getting desperate to get THIS project done... and usually not thinking about the future. To this day I've never had a return on anything I've ever done under that kind of relationship.

If there's something to be gained out of working for free, you'll know it based on the conversations you have with the guy doing the asking... and trusting your gut.
 
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I'm thankful, as usual, for the in-depth information on this board. Matt's reply is going to be incorporated into my core "project ethic" going forward... I have only worked on a couple of shorts, and am in the self-learning phase (it's kind of hard to find a local mentor/tutor in Boise, Idaho).

I hope this part isn't a thread hijack:

I am getting ready to work on a project by a recent graduate of our local state college (BSU). It is self- written, produced, & directed, so he doesn't have any up-front funds for crew or actors. Since I know he doesn't have funds, my question would be 2-part:
1) Do I ask for points, in case this does make any future money? (If so- is this a contract need?)
2) When asking for credit- should I ask for placement? (If so- what is preferred? Also a contract?)

http://sound.flyingmonkeystudio.com/
 
Alpha Flying Monkey said:
I am getting ready to work on a project by a recent graduate of our local state college (BSU). It is self- written, produced, & directed, so he doesn't have any up-front funds for crew or actors. Since I know he doesn't have funds, my question would be 2-part:
1) Do I ask for points, in case this does make any future money? (If so- is this a contract need?)
2) When asking for credit- should I ask for placement? (If so- what is preferred? Also a contract?)
Click to expand...

If you do get points, 100% you want it in writing.
It's not the norm to have the soundmixer get points but it can happen.
I had 1 point on a feature that came out earlier this year. My little piece of paper
had the potential of being worth 6 figures..
reality it ended up being worth about $0.30 cents. ;)


As far as placement, do you mean in the credit roll? No one is going
to hire you in the future because of WHERE your credit was.
Ive seen sound mixers being listed before the camera dept..but also after catering! (ouch)
As far as title goes, I dont think you really need it in writing other than
to help them remember what you asked for when they do the credits.
 
Points aren't worth jack unless you are simultaneously lucky to pick the right project and lucky in court/arbitration. I've never heard of anyone getting cash for points ever, except maybe on major motion pictures, and even then they usually get jerked around by the studios who pay the accountants extra so they don't have to pay the crew/talent.

Position in indie film credits doesn't mean anything in the age of IMDb and dvd reels. Just your title.
 
No Pay = No Pay, little respect and probably not much luck getting future work either.

Low Pay = Low Pay --- read less than minimum wage and under the table, long hours, more respect and the possibility that the Producer/Director/Cameraperson will listen to you when you mention the jet flying over your set and how it will effect the audio...

Deferred Pay = More than likely you won't see a dime, and probably won't be covered for expendables, meals, water, gas, hotels, etc.

Points = the real likelyhood that you will put in your time and talents and come away with little or more likely nothing to show for your efforts save for a credit. These days, distribution deals are harder to come by and even if someone says that they have a deal worked out, I bet they haven't got anything to show you in writing.

No matter what project you sign onto, make certain you are covered for Workmen's Comp/Liability insurance, since **** can and does happen to good people every day!

I started out doing No Pay... and got no pay and no respect.

My next job, I worked for no pay cause I liked the project. They producer liked my works so much he ended up paying my $50 out of pocket because the he was so pleased with the audio.

Next I signed onto a low pay job and actually got paid every day and was fortunate to work with a great crew.

Next job was a feature length job at < Minimum wage under the table... worked long hours good crew, bad jokes, and now the production is No Pay since the money dried up... so we'll see what happens after this week.

I tend to stray away from No/Lo/Deferred jobs as a practice. I 've invested too much money and time in my talent and equipment to not be able to cover the cost/upkeep.

Every now and then I might reply as a hoot. There are even some 'Points' ads out there I might reply to... though I doubt I'll end up working the job solely for points.

All you can do is put yourself out in the market and see whay works for you.

Namaste,

Jon
 
I say never work for free. Points or Deferred Only is working for free because 99.9999% of the time you're not going to see a penny. If you feel inclined to work for nothing at least make sure your expenses are covered, it's stupid for it to COST you to work on someone else's project.

Here's my take on payment arrangements. First I have to be comfortable about what money i AM getting before I'll even consider a gig. (I've never worked for free, not once. Remember if you're bringing gear you should be getting rental fees too.) Then make sure you have in your contract deferred payment for the rest of your usual rate and rental +10-20% for good measure. On the off chance that something sells your deferred payment is a debt and needs to be paid before ownership can be transferred. You can also put in there that you own the copyright to all your audio recordings until debt is paid as well (advantage of being a sound mixer). As for points you can put whatever you want but likely, as mentioned after accountants and lawyers get a hold of it you'll be weaseled out of anything anyways. If the production has investors get your % as if you were an investor since you just invested services that are worth something and you weren't paid in advance for them. Read books on producing and funding and then you'll be able to position yourself better in your deals in the off chance that something takes off.
 
My general rule of thumb is I will waive my day rate for the right conditions - many that Matt mentioned, but I do not waive my equipment rental fee. Think about it this way - if you take your equipment on a low budget shoot (presumably with no insurance) and something gets broken, are you willing to fork out the $$$ to get it fixed? After investing significant dollars building my kit I am not willing to have pieces trashed that I end up having to pay for.

This rule means that I often end up turning down work that seems very interesting. Oh well. If my kit gets trashed, then I can't do any work, right?

Also, points are nice (but will rarely get paid). If you're offered points, you have to get it in writing. I always work from a deal memo, regardless of what the terms are. It covers everything from my work commitments to payment terms to expendible reimbursement to battery disposal. This way there is no confusion, no hurt feelings, no disputes about what is agreed to.

Just my $.02 - take it for what it's worth.

:-)

Phil
 
Some great points made here. But I want to remind the OP, you went into this volunteering your gear and time, only as a result of "finding out" they rented the Hyper, has made you rethink. This is the 48hr. Id say to anyone, if you go into a 48hr, do it for fun and dont expect anything for it. If you want something for your gear go elsewhere and turn it down. But dont agree then "rethink". If youre truly unsatisfied just walk away from it.

I got asked recently to do a low paid job, and after carefully considering all the factors, I agreed to it. A week passes and they contact me asking if I can do it for free. I said no sorry, they said something along the lines of, oh, we can just get someone else and theyll get the credit, and I said GREAT!
 
Noel Evans said:
Some great points made here. But I want to remind the OP, you went into this volunteering your gear and time, only as a result of "finding out" they rented the Hyper, has made you rethink. This is the 48hr. Id say to anyone, if you go into a 48hr, do it for fun and dont expect anything for it. If you want something for your gear go elsewhere and turn it down. But dont agree then "rethink". If youre truly unsatisfied just walk away from it.
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Thanks Noel, but as I said I was mostly just asking for future reference. I agree trying to change them after saying I'd do it for free would be pretty shady.

And I did the shoot, and it was a good time. Plus one of the crew ended up buying my dolly which I'd been looking to sell, so it turned out pretty well in that respect as well :D
 
Noel Evans said:
This is the 48hr. Id say to anyone, if you go into a 48hr, do it for fun and dont expect anything for it.
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This is what I said, and I think this situation is different than the usual
"will you work on my project for nothing" situation.
 
On the other hand, I've done plenty of free work which has lead to some very long term work. So I think you need to look at each situation and make your own judgement. Another thought, many of the big directors, DPs, etc. that came up during the 70's all did free work for each other. They may have never gotten the chance to make some of their big films if they didn't. It's called networking. Never say never, you may miss out on a great opportunity!
 
skessler said:
Hey matt,
How's the silex code feature coming along I see you guys are trying to raise funds.

Shawn
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Ugh... not my baby. Most people don't realize that I shoot as much as I do sound... and this would have been a good gig to credit DP/cam op instead of simply sound. I hope it eventually comes through... but I would guess I'm not alone in the situation of having a dozen stews simmering on the back burner.

If HALF of what people say will happen... happened... I would be living FAT. :thumbsup:

Hence my point about not working for 100% free... if you work for free-free... it's amazing how quickly you can drown in "busy".
 
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