The GH5 has oh so many upsides in comparison to the P4K but my god does the P4K punch way above its weight in image quality. I want something that I can shoot both personal projects and freelance work but also be able to push in the grade. Now the GH5 offers the image to an extent but I’ve heard you can’t manipulate its footage too much and owning the BM micro myself atm I know the image can go very far but it’s super cumbersome with wires, add ons etc to make it work and while the P4K alleviates some of this there’s still the need for a battery solution and potentially an external monitor. I’m so torn atm, any advice?
GH5 Game Over, Panasonic
- Thread starter Jim Simon
- Start date
Where have you heard this? I've yet to see any examples of the 400mbps internal codec breaking during grading and have yet to see it myself (even the with the 150mbps codec) - it's very robust.
GH5 user in this comparison says that the GH5 doesn't offer much room to manipulate the exposure, shadows highlights etc more than +1 or -1 of light without potential issue. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bTFlmcDu5bg
Save mistakes? The great benefit of a beefy codec is that you can easily under expose something such as a landscape to save highlights in the sky while bringing up shadows in post for a perfect high dynamic range.
You speak as if only a novice would want that kind of capability from a camera.
I echo this. Compressed codecs are often dramatically (and unfairly) underrated for all but the most extreme grading and FX work. Even then they'll usually get by okay unless you're working on the Avengers 5 or something. You just need to be a little more protective of your extremes of exposure. Having said that I find shooting log compressed is a bit of a waste of time versus just running with a good profile like Canon's WideDR.
What you are describing is correctly exposing for the scene and not underexposing. The GH5 can do this. The codec won't make any difference to DR or noise in the shadows as this is inherent capability / limitation of the sensor.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
The camera store guys from Calgary did a video where they re enacted the "So you think I'm funny" scene from Goodfellas....you can probably find it online from that description....they then gave the footage to a Post House to grade....you should watch the interview portion with the guy that graded it for a professional evaluation of the GH5 codec and I'm pretty sure it was before the 400AI came out.
John Brawley
Well-known member
It’s not about exposure. Sometimes the exposure is perfect but not the colours in your shot.
Sometimes you’re in a location that has mixed colour lighting. You can’t change it. You can’t control it. You can grade one way or the other to bias but both might look bad on skin tone. That’s when you start doing secondary keys and trying to grab secondary hues.
That’s when compression and lower bit depth hurts you.
What we keep forgetting here though is that the cameras are so inexpensive for what they do it’s pretty feasible to have both and use whichever best suits the needs.
JB
joe12south
Veteran
I confess, I don't see the appeal of this product. It's as big as a mini v-mount, and less versatile. I can't really see a scenario in which seating my small camera on a big clunky box is appealing except on a tripod, and if I'm on a tripod...I'm back to v-mount. Now, if it were shaped to match the camera, utilized the 2-pin 12V input, and had a bay to mount an SSD, I'd be all over.
You mean shooting RAW helps you or are you saying ProRes 10bit 4.2.2 is a lot better than the GH5 10bit 4.2.2 400mbps? I agree on your second point and intend to use both.
joe12south
Veteran
Some day I will achieve the inner peace to no longer be maddened by ignorant comments made by online strangers. Today is not that day. Today, I’m going to unleash an old man’s rant:
If you truly believe this, then I hope to never work with you. This is a childish, dangerous approach to real world shooting that can’t survive outside of the clean room environment of theory (or Internet forums.)
The problem starts with the false premise that there is such a thing as a single “correct” exposure for anything other than a test chart. There are countless reasons to push or pull exposure–some creative, some practical. This “latitude” has been one of film’s long standing advantages over video or digital acquisition.
False. Categorically, demonstrably, false. The GH5’s codecs are designed for delivery, not acquisition. As such, they rely on fundamental weaknesses of human vision to get away with massively compressing shadows. (It’s a smart thing to do, for delivery.) Combine the compression with the fact that the GH5 applies aggressive noise reduction, and you’re left with very little actual image detail in the shadows. The limitation is *not* the sensor, it is the codec.
Contrast with a 12-bit RAW signal which records shadow detail down to the noise floor as equally as any other part of the image. I can tell you which I’d rather lift in post.
joe12south
Veteran
It's so dependent on your personal needs and desires.
For me, I am *LESS* likely to need an external monitor with the P4K's 5" screen than with the GH5 simply because I don't often *need* the screen to articulate, but I almost always *need* to be able to pull focus and I often need to shoot outdoors. (It is SO nice to be able to punch in and out for focus while recording!) For someone else, like say a vlogger, the lack of an articulating screen could be a dealbreaker.
I think the battery concern is getting a little overblown. If you need the smallest possible hand-held set-up, run off the internal batteries. Yes, undeniably they don't last long, but it works. 30 minutes at a time, solid. Close to an hour stop and go. Carry a few extra. They are common, and cheap. It's not quite as convenient as the long run times of the GH-series, so you may have to adapt your habits a bit. For me, when in such a scenario (if I'm not just using the GH5) I will change the P4K battery each time I swap memory cards. (I never run for long without switching cards, even when I could.) Unlike the GH5, you have TONS of other options to power the P4K, even with an internal battery loaded. Power it from your gimbal. Power it from v-mount, from gold mount, from AC, from whatever.
joe12south
Veteran
I don't think any amount of words, or even tests by someone else, can properly convey the differences between working with a highly compressed, highly processed, 10-bit 4:2:2 image and an uncompressed, lightly processed, 12-bit 4:4:4 image. When the P4K becomes more widely available, I encourage anyone curious to rent it and see for yourself. You'll either care, or you won't, but don't kid yourself into thinking you can make that judgement without actually working with your own footage.
Keep your hair on - stranger.....
There is always a correct exposure and it's the one that gets your desired end result. No good exposing for middle grey in a high contrast scene when you want to retain highlight detail or ETTR when you want maximise shadow detail. Scene lighting ratio >DR you have to make compromises / scene lighting ratio < DR you have some latitude. Film is a whole other argument as it's not got a linear response to exposure like digital so can't be compared directly.
Are you talking about codec or capture profile? V-LOG is not a delivery profile and the 400mbs 10 bit 4.2.2 codec is pretty damn good as any comparison the the HDMI out to and ext recorder using ProRes shows. As the GH5 can shoot RAW stills as well as video it's pretty apparent that the DR limitations of this camera are sensor and not codec related.
I'll test it myself when mine is delivered but I'm not buying it because I think GH5's codec is the godawful mess you claim it is.
I'm also not overly concerned with battery life and swooping out batteries between takes seems more preferably than cables and an ext pack. I've got the Atomos power station but it's awkward to rig up to any camera and even on the Sony A7s and A7R2 I went back to internal batteries for ease of use. Now the original BMPCC was pretty limiting without ext power but the recording times I've seen posted for the P4k look eminently usable in most situations.
joe12south
Veteran
I've got a cup of coffee in me, I'm feeling much better.
Codec. H.264. V-Log L vs Black Magic Film is a different discussion...spoiler alert: BMD Film doesn't suffer the compromises made in V-LOG L.
No, in this context - latitude - they can certainly be compared, and until very recently, film was the clear winner. How it gets there–and the fact that digital cameras need to work harder to do it–is irrelevant.
Don't conflate dynamic range and latitude. Pure DR is only one factor affecting latitude. (latitude | ˈladəˌt
o͞od | noun | Scope for freedom of action) Two cameras with the exact same measured DR can have different usable latitude for a myriad of reasons, one of which is the codec. You can see this for yourself with nothing but a GH5. There is more latitude to work with a 14-bit RAW still than a 400mbps 10bit 422 V-LOG L frame.I agree, for what it is, the GH5's codec does an admirable job. I use it every day. For the record, the 400mbs flavor does not really offer better IQ than the 150mbps version. The extra bandwidth goes to ALL-I encoding making it easier to edit. About the only visible advantage is that you avoid the chance of motion interpolation errors.
Never once have I made such a claim. Stating that Thing A is better than Thing B does not mean that Thing B is bad. It's not a binary equation. You're projecting a level of hyperbole that isn't present in my communications.
joe12south
Veteran
I won't lie: the P4K's short internal battery life is stressful for someone used to the GH-series. Remember the GH4? I felt like I could get half a day out of a battery in that camera. I stuck one extra battery in my pocket and never thought about it again. Even "upgrading" to the GH5 was a disappointment and required an adjustment to my workflow. There's no way I'd take P4K outside without 4-6 LP-E6 batteries on my hip.
filmguy123
Veteran
Im a sucker for well phrased quips and I’m stealing this one for future use... well played sir. I like it.