GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

joe12south said:
The Slanted Lens usually does a good job reviewing gear. This is the most useful "comparison" video I've seen so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTFlmcDu5bg
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To me, that review was one of the worst. Look at the white part of the model's dress. It doesn't look like any white balance was attempted. Indoors the GH5 had no lens hood, had an oversized ND filter, and was positioned in the sun. BMPCC4K had a lens hood and was positioned where the window frame blocked the sunlight off of the lens.
 
Kevin Kelly said:
To me, that review was one of the worst. Look at the white part of the model's dress. It doesn't look like any white balance was attempted. Indoors the GH5 had no lens hood, had an oversized ND filter, and was positioned in the sun. BMPCC4K had a lens hood and was positioned where the window frame blocked the sunlight off of the lens.
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Niggly details that don't materially impact the overall conclusions. I kind of appreciate that they didn't try to match color.
 
joe12south said:
Another nice P4k sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Md5PqFXpM

Interesting how they chose to not do any noise reduction even though it could have easily been cleaned-up in Resolve. I wonder if it was a creative choice, or done to intentionally reveal the camera's "native" low light performance?
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To me the entire point of shooting with no noise reduction baked in is to keep it that way. Any noise reduction done in post ultimately results in that same plastic look. It’s the process of removing noise that tends to start to make things look digital or processed and when you have a camera devoid of that one tends to keep it that way. If the intention is to add noise reduction in post I’m not entirely sure how the end results are going to greatly differ anyway. Yes post noise reduction is more powerful but I really think we are splitting hairs here.

I have tried Neatvideo on ProRes raw and BRAW material now and each time the skin ends up with that same plastic texture to it so I’m not sure how much is really gained in the end. Personally if I could shoot raw I would likely keep the noise as is unless it is something that could hurt the delivery compression. Then again I would use those things called lights to not get in those situations but that’s just me.

Part of the beauty of dual native ISO of course is that one should be able to cover a wide range of environments with minimal noise.
 
Thomas Smet said:
To me the entire point of shooting with no noise reduction baked in is to keep it that way. Any noise reduction done in post ultimately results in that same plastic look. It’s the process of removing noise that tends to start to make things look digital or processed and when you have a camera devoid of that one tends to keep it that way. If the intention is to add noise reduction in post I’m not entirely sure how the end results are going to greatly differ anyway. Yes post noise reduction is more powerful but I really think we are splitting hairs here.

I have tried Neatvideo on ProRes raw and BRAW material now and each time the skin ends up with that same plastic texture to it so I’m not sure how much is really gained in the end. Personally if I could shoot raw I would likely keep the noise as is unless it is something that could hurt the delivery compression. Then again I would use those things called lights to not get in those situations but that’s just me.

Part of the beauty of dual native ISO of course is that one should be able to cover a wide range of environments with minimal noise.
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Well, the taking the NR out of camera is about choice and control. You have the option that you prefer, you have the option to use a very light touch, or you have the option to go heavy handed like in-camera processing.

You can actually use Neat to get very good, very natural looking results. I've profiled all of my cameras over the years at common ISOs exposed correctly and underexposed, and applied judiciously, the results can be quite impressive. And when it saves an otherwise unusable shot, it's down right magic.
 
Like so many, I have been following the release of the new BMCC and the rampant squabble about comparing which will be the better cam. And while image quality is a big deal, convenience factors matter too. Find attached a link to a PVC article bt Allan Tepper comparing usability of the two cams.

Forgive if this is a repost, I didn't read the entire 93 pages of thread. But that just shows how popular this topic is.

Regards,
Grant

https://www.provideocoalition.com/wolfcrow-50-reasons-to-pick-the-panasonic-gh5-over-the-bmpcc-4k/
 
Ugh. That's not an article, it's a link to a dreaded Wolfcrow video. (That's kind of like Rick Rolling!) He's wrong or wrong-ish on a few, but those are mostly valid points.

Something I don't hear mentioned much is the ergonomic benefit of *not* being able to do everything. There's something nice about a purpose-built machine-human interface that is streamlined for a specific task. I know myself, I've spent so much time over the last few years working with "hybrids" that I've forgotten the simple directness of working with a video camera. It will be interesting to see how I react to the P4K's more spartan ergonomics.
 
PaPa said:
Don't know if you guys saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXPjuSUH6kY

Far too many gh5 vs bmpcc 4k. Would be so much more beneficial to compare the gh5s.
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Yeah, very, very similar IQ. Not enough difference to matter to many people.

But the cost to get there:

P4K: $1,300
GH5S + NINJA V: $3,100

So, unless you need open gate anamorphic or already own the GH5S, it's hard to make the value equation come out on its side. You can buy a lot of extra batteries with $1,800. :-P
 
joe12south said:
Yeah, very, very similar IQ. Not enough difference to matter to many people.

But the cost to get there:

P4K: $1,300
GH5S + NINJA V: $3,100

So, unless you need open gate anamorphic or already own the GH5S, it's hard to make the value equation come out on its side. You can buy a lot of extra batteries with $1,800. :-P
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Yeah except for the fact that most people don’t need the external recorder. Having a GH5s is also about robustness in the camera and having a flawless tool that just works in any and every condition without the need to Velcro on other gear. They may also desire a balance between quality and small file sizes. For a lot of users even the 8 bit 100mbps is enough and that can justify the added cost.

Plus like we stated early I doubt most people will buy just the p4k and no other accessories. There is no such thing as a $1300 p4k that matches the functionality of a GH5s for some forms of production.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Yeah except for the fact that most people don’t need the external recorder.
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But that was the test we are talking about.

For a lot of users even the 8 bit 100mbps is enough and that can justify the added cost.
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Pay extra for a worse codec? If ProRes LT is too heavy, then you probably shouldn't be spending over $2,000 on a camera.

There is no such thing as a $1300 p4k that matches the functionality of a GH5s for some forms of production.
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No point in comparing use case A against use case B. We're comparing camera A and camera B in the same use case. One may prefer one camera over another for a particular use, but I can't think of a scenario in which the GH5S would not be meaningfully more expensive than the P4K.
 
joe12south said:
Yeah, very, very similar IQ. Not enough difference to matter to many people.

But the cost to get there:

P4K: $1,300
GH5S + NINJA V: $3,100

So, unless you need open gate anamorphic or already own the GH5S, it's hard to make the value equation come out on its side. You can buy a lot of extra batteries with $1,800. :-P
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But value is subjective, no?

Batteries, recording media, storage, etc... Workflow indeed matters. Workflow during the shoot and in post. Given what I know of the 4k and the gh5s (own a gh5s and used to own a bmpcc), if I had both in the same bag right now and had to go on a few jobs over the following weeks, there are certain times I would pick one camera over the other. Narrative shoots with a crew? bmpcc4k no question, but in any other venue where speed and very long recording times are necessary, swapping frame rates, auto focus, the list goes on and on (depending on the shooters needs), I'd be grabbing the gh5s.

Personally, for my shooting needs, I tend to look at cameras from: $1k and under, $3k and under, $5k and under and $10k and under. No argument, looks like you get one hell of a deal with black magic since you also get full resolve. For the price i'd probably pick one up, but for the sake of comparison, given the price point, I have a difficult time believing that those who can afford a bmpcc 4k, with the necessary accessories to have a fully functional working system through post, who make a living shooting video, couldn't swap the cost for a gh5s. At this price point, you're really splitting hairs. For hobbyists? Sure. I say this only to set the basis for my argument as to why I feel a comparison between the same sensor in this case is more important that comparing to a camera marginally closer in cost. Between the two cameras, if I had the budget to purchase one or the other and not both (narrative, documentary, event, weddings, etc...) the gh5s would cover more ground. If I owned neither camera and purchased a bmpcc 4k to cover all of my needs, given my career thus far, I'd have to purchase a second camera, a second lens, etc... A camera that is more of a workhorse is of huge value, to me.

Cheers!
 
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PaPa said:
But value is subjective, no?

Batteries, recording media, storage, etc... Workflow indeed matters. Workflow during the shoot and in post. Given what I know of the 4k and the gh5s (own a gh5s and used to own a bmpcc), if I had both in the same bag right now and had to go on a few jobs over the following weeks, there are certain times I would pick one camera over the other. Narrative shoots with a crew? bmpcc4k no question, but in any other venue where speed and very long recording times are necessary, swapping frame rates, auto focus, the list goes on and on (depending on the shooters needs), I'd be grabbing the gh5s.

Personally, for my shooting needs, I tend to look at cameras from: $1k and under, $3k and under, $5k and under and $10k and under. No argument, looks like you get one hell of a deal with black magic since you also get full resolve. For the price i'd probably pick one up, but for the sake of comparison, given the price point, I have a difficult time believing that those who can afford a bmpcc 4k, with the necessary accessories to have a fully functional working system through post, who make a living shooting video, couldn't swap the cost for a gh5s. At this price point, you're really splitting hairs. For hobbyists? Sure. I say this only to set the basis for my argument as to why I feel a comparison between the same sensor in this case is more important that comparing to a camera marginally closer in cost. Between the two cameras, if I had the budget to purchase one or the other and not both (narrative, documentary, event, weddings, etc...) the gh5s would cover more ground. If I owned neither camera and purchased a bmpcc 4k to cover all of my needs, given my career thus far, I'd have to purchase a second camera, a second lens, etc... A camera that is more of a workhorse is of huge value, to me.

Cheers!
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If you need an all-purpose camera, the GH5 is an even better choice than the GH5S. It "covers the most ground" as you say. (I think most people paying a premium for the GH5S over the GH5 are doing so for the incremental IQ improvement (low light, better color), because it's actually a less flexible all-arounder than the GH5.)

I totally agree, though, if you can only afford one camera, and your focus is not on controlled narrative ("cinematic") work, then the P4K is almost certainly a bad choice.
 
PS. I forgot to add the XLR adapter to the comparison. That lifts the GH5S package price to $2,200 more than the P4K.

If you're shooting a budget movie, there are WAY better ways to use that money.
 
joe12south said:
PS. I forgot to add the XLR adapter to the comparison. That lifts the GH5S package price to $2,200 more than the P4K.

If you're shooting a budget movie, there are WAY better ways to use that money.
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I think we can all agree here. If we're comparing $/$ what you can achieve using these cameras stricly in a narrative settings, the clear winner is the bmpcc 4K.

Good discussion.
 
As pretty much the target user I'm following this thread with interest. I've been shooting corporate, health and education work for a while but am finally putting my own kit together after renting (C100, C200's). I was about to pull the trigger on the GH5s when I gave the P4k another look. I liked what I saw from the specs and early tests so put down my pre-order.

As I'm dipping my toe into owning gear for the first time cost was a factor. Not the determining one but a consideration nevertheless. I was looking at about AU$4.2k for a GH5s + XLR + monitor + batteries. The P4k may let me get away with an audio adapter and monitor, so factoring in a the camera, a Powerbase and a pocket full of batteries it came to about $2.4k. (Both obviously sans lens, support, lighting, etc.)

Setup costs are obviously just a small part of the equation though. The P4k may be nearly half the price but is it fit for task? The twin elephants in the room being data and power. It remains to be seen how far through a day the Powerbase will get me. And I'm going to have to dramatically scale up my storage and archiving, at least until BRaw comes to the P4k. That'll eat into the price differential.

For my fast and lean work it's a big gamble choosing the Blackmagic. If it pays off my clients and I will get that lovely, lovely DR, motion and colour science. If not, hey, chalk it down to experience and it'll make a great AC powered second camera. No serious investment so nothing major lost. Hopefully by that time Panasonic may drop the price of the GH5s a little!
 
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