GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

Bern Caughey said:
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K first Review - Beautiful but Limiting!
by Max Yuryev

https://youtu.be/ju2Q1Tv-2Aw
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Something must have obviously gone wrong in processing the log in the comparison between log and raw.

raw-prores.jpg

The ProRes log highlights are obviously clipped and lowered in post.

I do not have the camera (yet) but the whole premise that raw has a higher dynamic range compared to log is questionable.
 
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Bassman2003 said:
I have to agree with Spartacus. As a person who shoots all kinds of stuff, I see the term "cinema camera" kind of like "film look". We all know what it means or what it stands for but it is getting used a lot. For the p4k the term means less usability features compared to a full fledged camera to get the price down. It is an awesome tool and image but lets not kid ourselves. A $1,300 camera is going to be used far more often by "normal" users making everything than only at the center of a production film crew - just because it is labelled a cinema camera. Not saying anything bad here. I love the image and the approach. Happy it is in the marketplace.

If the GH6 has RAW video would it then be called a cinema camera?
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No because it will forever be a hybrid camera since it shoots stills.

With that said I already consider the GH4 and GH5 cinema cameras because they shoot DCI, true 24p and provide 10bit log options even if that means external. Having a path to DCI 4k log 10bit 422 ProRes or even better uncompressed always put the GH4 and GH5 cameras in a whole new league.

But I agree it’s really semantics at a certain point. They could call a camera Fred and it wouldn’t really matter. Some people use a URSA mini to shoot weddings. If one buys a camera solely based on how marketing wants to position the camera they have a serious problem.
 
In Redshark's recent review of the P4K the reviewer defines a cinema camera as one that prioritizes image quality above all else. (I'm paraphrasing.) I think that's a pretty decent working description. All cameras must compromise. A cinema camera sacrifices anything else possible before sacrificing IQ. This is certainly in line with my filmmaking ethos. I'll put-up with a lot of inconveniences if it means getting the best possible image.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Not even close to the same concept. Many video cameras also have a stills feature but nobody on the planet would consider them a hybrid camera.
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That's kinda my point...

So a cinema camera can shoot stills. And a stills photo camera can shoot video.

But if a cinema camera shoots too good of stills, now it's considered a "hybrid" and loses its cinema camera designation? If a still photo camera shoots too good of video, does it become a hybrid and lose its still camera design?

So really the barometer is not if a tool shoots video or photo, it somehow becomes less of a photo or video tool by being "too good" at one?

It's just silly.

The GH5s is every bit as much of a cinema camera as the Pocket 4k. It's just one that lacks RAW. Unless as someone else says, "RAW" is the new definition of a cinema camera, which then means a whole bunch of cameras currently marketed and sold as cinema cameras suddenly become disqualified.

BTW, the RED shoots great stills doesn't it? They even coined it the DSMC (Digital Stills/Motion). I guess it's not a cinema camera? I mean, unless it shoots BAD stills. Then it's ok.
 
Pocket 4K @ 35-40 minutes becomes unreliable for anything professional, even with a stack of batteries, I know from b-roll scenarios if you leave your camera powered up to be ready that's an incredibly short leash to have to swap that often. Impractical. And dangerous to lose power and get a clip corrupt. I mean, it can and will work, if you want to carry 20 batteries to get through a 10 hour day (and lets hope you aren't filming the next day, or else carry 10 dual chargers and a power strip). But personally I would run that with the Hawks Wood Gripper batteries on D-tap. There are some screen solutions like a hood or attachable viewfinder that could quasi work too, but it might be best to add a smallhd or ninja v to the top for swivel/tilt (also powered on d-tap with those gripper batteries). Then add a cage, some basic rods and plate, and probably a USB-C SSD on top.

Now, this starts to "kit out" the camera a bit so the GH5 maintains a lightweight/small b-roll advantage for sure. But compared to say, an EVA1, you are still really mean and lean on the setup I just described and probably tracking a 4lbs (ish) total payload + lens. That ain't bad and the IQ / features are outstanding.

$250 Cage Setup
$200 SSD (higher end than the cheaper ones, for 4k60p RAW)
$750 Gripper Battery Setup with dual charger
$700 Ninja V
$100 Misc Cables and hardware

So total around $3300, but the majority of that is an investment into gear that is multi purposed and can be reused elsewhere later.
 
Cinema is a dead term. 24 frames a second is simply the minimum amount of frames that show motion without stutter - the idea was to save on film stock, Super 35 is simply photo film funning on its side all borne out of necessity and compromise. all of this is a thing of the past. In the future content will be shot on all kinds of formats maybe it makes sense to speak of "immersive" imagery.
In order to create that immersive image you simply need a tool that allows you to control the image focus, depth, dynamic range and color. its about the control.
 
I think the BMPCC 4K will be great for film schools, independent "film dreamers", b-roll for larger products, etc. but after looking at all the footage released, all the reviews, it's got nothing for a guy like me who has an infrastructure built up with the GH5s. I finished a larger job with the GH5s last week, and couldn't be happier. This work is non-glamorous bill paying work, NOT cinema, and I appreciate longer battery life, bullet proof dependability, interaction with the Ronin-s gimbal for focus control, and the storage value of the 150mb/sec codec, which was stellar on the talking head green screen footage. I shot all the green screen in natural profile, and all the b-roll (much at 60fps) in CineD and appreciated the ease of use on the time-line. I couldn't go log or any profile that required someone to grade if the client uses the footage in other ways down the line, and thought the dynamic range of the CineD was better than I was expecting. I wound up with almost 7 hours of source footage, and the subject matter didn't command or demand the data rate of 60fps UHD Prores.

I have a pre-order for a BMPCC 4K placed on April 13 with B&H and will be cancelling. My original reasoning for getting it was that it would be like having a hot rod/funny car version of my stable mini-van/sedan (the GH5s) for weekend film making fun. But what I'm seeing from all the footage rolling in is marginal dynamic range improvement over a GH5s, slightly worse rolling shutter (16ms vs the GH5s' 12ms... when I do VFX every ms counts!) and general dislike of the physical layout and battery life. Basically I can't see the 35% hit in ease of use for a 15% improvement in the highlights. I was on the fence this last week, but this video comparison was sort of a tipping point...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXPjuSUH6kY

I think I'll pick up the original GH5 for the stills and IBIS abilities instead to flush out a 2 camera package, and wait to see what the more novel and interesting full frame Lumix world will be like in the spring... I shot a "fun" project with the GH5s in the early summer, and now can't imagine the BM camera bettering the image I got on that shoot in the same conditions in any meaningful way, so...

Regards,
 
I alsodont see myself picking up a BMPCC 4K. For me the "usability" of a small form factor camera is unique to the gh5 the ibis combined with color dynamic range etc, but the IBIS is the key, otherwise I would prefer my FS7 (or many other cameras) shoulder-mounted. Im actually thinking of selling my GH5s and getting a second GH5.

Jim Arthurs said:
I think the BMPCC 4K will be great for film schools, independent "film dreamers", b-roll for larger products, etc. but after looking at all the footage released, all the reviews, it's got nothing for a guy like me who has an infrastructure built up with the GH5s. I finished a larger job with the GH5s last week, and couldn't be happier. This work is non-glamorous bill paying work, NOT cinema, and I appreciate longer battery life, bullet proof dependability, interaction with the Ronin-s gimbal for focus control, and the storage value of the 150mb/sec codec, which was stellar on the talking head green screen footage. I shot all the green screen in natural profile, and all the b-roll (much at 60fps) in CineD and appreciated the ease of use on the time-line. I couldn't go log or any profile that required someone to grade if the client uses the footage in other ways down the line, and thought the dynamic range of the CineD was better than I was expecting. I wound up with almost 7 hours of source footage, and the subject matter didn't command or demand the data rate of 60fps UHD Prores.

I have a pre-order for a BMPCC 4K placed on April 13 with B&H and will be cancelling. My original reasoning for getting it was that it would be like having a hot rod/funny car version of my stable mini-van/sedan (the GH5s) for weekend film making fun. But what I'm seeing from all the footage rolling in is marginal dynamic range improvement over a GH5s, slightly worse rolling shutter (16ms vs the GH5s' 12ms... when I do VFX every ms counts!) and general dislike of the physical layout and battery life. Basically I can't see the 35% hit in ease of use for a 15% improvement in the highlights. I was on the fence this last week, but this video comparison was sort of a tipping point...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXPjuSUH6kY

I think I'll pick up the original GH5 for the stills and IBIS abilities instead to flush out a 2 camera package, and wait to see what the more novel and interesting full frame Lumix world will be like in the spring... I shot a "fun" project with the GH5s in the early summer, and now can't imagine the BM camera bettering the image I got on that shoot in the same conditions in any meaningful way, so...

Regards,
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Jim Arthurs said:
Basically I can't see the 35% hit in ease of use for a 15% improvement in the highlights. I was on the fence this last week, but this video comparison was sort of a tipping point...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXPjuSUH6kY
Click to expand...

Funny, the Pocket 4K looks years better to me in that. Compare :17 to 1:03 (rough time codes) to see similar shot on P4K/GH5s. The smoothness and rendering of the image just looks better on the pocket. Don't know any technical terms to describe it, but it looks less digital and processed and just much more beautiful to my eye.

But yeah, outside that, the GH5s wins.

The Pocket 4K is a true beast. All I know is a couple years go fast and if/when BM releases a Mark II or S version with IBIS, tilt screen, better battery and a few little idiosyncrasy improved the world as we know it might collapse. Slash, if Panasonic just does a little work on the mojo/digital processing for GH6.

But mostly, I have my eye on the March 2019 Panasonic S1.
 
So glad we are continuing this thread.
Thanks all for continuing input and links to tests.
I'm gonna pick me up one of them thar GH5's!
 
the S1 and a zeiss Otus 55mm 1.4 that would be my setup

filmguy123 said:
Funny, the Pocket 4K looks years better to me in that. Compare :17 to 1:03 (rough time codes) to see similar shot on P4K/GH5s. The smoothness and rendering of the image just looks better on the pocket. Don't know any technical terms to describe it, but it looks less digital and processed and just much more beautiful to my eye.

But yeah, outside that, the GH5s wins.

The Pocket 4K is a true beast. All I know is a couple years go fast and if/when BM releases a Mark II or S version with IBIS, tilt screen, better battery and a few little idiosyncrasy improved the world as we know it might collapse. Slash, if Panasonic just does a little work on the mojo/digital processing for GH6.

But mostly, I have my eye on the March 2019 Panasonic S1.
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Seriously considering canceling my preordered Pocket 4K, & eating the deposit.

The prospect of losing footage on a paid gig due to poor battery performance, & more importantly, reliability, is a non-starter.

Sure the P4K will work for some users, & imagine BlackMagic will eventually sort some of the issues with firmware updates, but if I need to build it up with external batteries I’ll be better off using my FS7 instead.
 
The only camera that I find really interesting right now is the Kinfinity Terra 4k. Very flexible lens mounting options very well engineered and I see a lot of really good looking footage.
besides- Dual ISO, ProRez in all flavors 100fps in 4k.
 
icarusfilm said:
The only camera that I find really interesting right now is the Kinfinity Terra 4k. Very flexible lens mounting options very well engineered and I see a lot of really good looking footage.
besides- Dual ISO, ProRez in all flavors 100fps in 4k.
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The Z CAM E2 is a really interesting "cinema" camera.
- Built to be rigged.
- 120 FPS 4K.
- 16 stop WDR mode.
- Dual ISO.
- 10-bit files a Mac can actually read.
- $2,000 USD, shipping now.
- ProRes confirmed for firmware update.
- Very responsive to community.
 
icarusfilm said:
Cinema is a dead term. 24 frames a second is simply the minimum amount of frames that show motion without stutter - the idea was to save on film stock, Super 35 is simply photo film funning on its side all borne out of necessity and compromise. all of this is a thing of the past. In the future content will be shot on all kinds of formats maybe it makes sense to speak of "immersive" imagery.
In order to create that immersive image you simply need a tool that allows you to control the image focus, depth, dynamic range and color. its about the control.
Click to expand...
That's why 3D and high frame rate movies really took-off, huh? ;-)

Seriously, though, "cinema" is far from a dead term. It describes an ethos and an aesthetic that will continue to equal "quality narrative images" for a long time to come.
 
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