joe12south
Veteran
All evidence to date is that every BMD camera looks a little better, and each version of their color science is a little better. There is so much discussion because there is no reason to think that won't be the case again.
GH5 Game Over, Panasonic
- Thread starter Jim Simon
- Start date
All evidence to date is that every BMD camera looks a little better, and each version of their color science is a little better. There is so much discussion because there is no reason to think that won't be the case again.
Well my reasoning is that if BM suddenly puts the best IQ they've got into a 1.3k cam, it becomes much harder to convince someone to pay 6k for an UMPro. Again, I'd love to see it, but I think expecting it is just asking for disappointment.
John Brawley
Well-known member
I don’t think BMD think this way. I’ve never seen them “protect” other cameras by offering or restricting features beyond what the hardware is capable of. That’s what makes them exciting in my view.
Unlike...well...pretty much everyone else.
I think the big difference is noticed in the grade. Once you start pushing the shots around THEN you notice the limitations of a codec that may have not struggled to see any visual difference in. You might not see it, but its there because that’s how compression is.
Bit Depth followed by compression are the two biggest jumps you can make if you want nice looking pictures. If you’re really good and get it right in camera then sure, an 8 (or 10bit) highly compressed codec can look good. I’ve done it before with some Olympus m43 cameras. Here’s a piece I did with the EM-5 Mark II and a BMD Video Assist recording ProRes.
https://vimeo.com/178135545
But as soon as you try and push those shots around more than the basic corrections, you very quickly hit a wall.
That’s where the 12 bit codecs with more “pro” compression really pay for themselves, and I notice it especially when you’re trying to match multiple cameras.
JB
filmguy123
Veteran
Weight - 50% the weight. Super important for a solo operator not working primarily on tripods or with a crew.
Trust - friend who works shooting stuff on crews for Nike all the time. Constant complaints on one freelancer and their BMD camera causing problems. Great IQ, not reliable. This was years ago. That stuck with me. At the end of the day, most clients care about the business side and reliability more than the extra stop of DR or the couple thousand you saved on the camera. Literally one problem on a $2000/day shoot day ruins and destroys any costs savings on a BMD, doesn't it?
Workflow - I have other Panasonic gear. The color science matches. It's just easier than introducing a whole new brand into my pipeline. I'm famiiar with Panasonic. Panasonic has more codec options. LOVE that URSA shoots so many ProRes formats internally etc. But don't love that I can't dial it back. So I'm on location and need to shoot a talking head for 2 hours of interview footage, and I know in the final edit his seated, no movement, head shot is going to be on screen for 3 seconds. 150mpbs LongGOP is preferrable to shooting a low res proxy ALL-I prores file or a super HQ file. Same with primary content - if you have a long on location shooting day, sometimes you really need and want more practical codecs. Options. Because bottom line: I can add an Atomos to the EVA1 and still be under the size/weight of the URSA.
Power - I don't like the fact that I need to use big heavy V-mount batteries to power the URSA. That is a huge size/weight consideration that ties back into the original weight metric.
Misc - EVA1 has 5.7k and 240fps options.
Bottom line: URSA mini looks fantastic as a camera. I frankly just don't trust it as my main workhorse camera enough to invest VS Panasonic. I also see the practical considerations with size, weight, v-mount batteries, recording options, etc. making it a less versatile and practical camera overall. If it weren't for these things, there is a TON to love about the URSA. Maybe version 2.0 or 3.0 if they keep improving at the rate they are. I like my EVA1 a lot. I also have a list of grievances with it, and I feel BMD is overall more innovative and in tune with pushing the envelope to address customer needs in cutting edge ways. However, they are just a bit more immature and a little less trustworthy. I can't afford that. And the benefits of the URSA simply aren't big enough over the EVA1, and the cost difference is virtually meaningless to me at this price point... it's not like we're talking $6k vs $15k here. And we are also at the point of IQ equivalence where it's splitting hairs. The only people who can genuinely tell the difference at this level are DPs. And even then it's getting to the point of preference. EVA1 is awesome. FS7 is awesome. BMD is awesome. Ok. So what matters most now? Professionalism, trust, reliability, practicality, workflow. At least if you're a working pro. Those metrics trump everything. And if they don't for you today, they will when your gear F's up and costs you. BMD is getting better all the time, so no flame war intended, just my reasons.
And FWIW, if reliability was 100% equal, I still would have chosen the EVA1 for the other reasons listed. Size, weight, practicality, workflow are absolutely massive issues for me personally.
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It's definitely exciting. But concepts like segmentation, pricing signals, etc. are real, and have a direct impact on profit, so I would expect them to eventually be adopted if they aim to grow the company/brand to compete in higher end markets.
As someone with no skin in the game, I'm happy to see them do what they've been doing. If successful, it'll force everyone else to lower prices. Hopefully they remain privately held and just keep innovating away. Everyone wins if they do that.
John Brawley
Well-known member
I don’t think so.
You have to understand their ethos. They’ve been a round a long time and this is the way they’ve always worked.
JB
I do understand the ethos, and admire it -- keep releasing things that are as good and as affordable as they can make them and earn respect by walking the walk instead of talking the talk. I just don't think it's going to take them into the pro ranks. And given their release of the UMPro, I think that's what they're aiming for. But maybe not.
Seeing as they've been at it for about ~6 years on the cine camera side of things now, and are generally seen to be on the outside looking in, with a reputation for being cheap and unreliable, I don't know how far it has gotten them.
It's sick, but it's true: Innovation and affordability often loses out to premium pricing and marketing. Especially as we start to hit the limits of resolution / technical ability. Once all cameras effectively look and are priced similarly, the strength of the brand becomes the biggest differentiating factor.
Like I said, I hope BM keeps ticking and doesn't give into these pressures. But if they want to compete in the big leagues (and especially if they want to go public), they're going to have to at some point.
John Brawley
Well-known member
This may sound strange, but they really don’t aspire to be taken into “pro” ranks. They don’t seek the vindication of professional use. They don’t need the cache of “Hollywood”. One thing that Grant has often said is that he hates the cost barriers of equipment for people to do good work. He doesn’t want to make cheap but good tools for professionals.
He really wants to give good tools to those that would never as easily get access to more expensive options.
That’s why I say it’s never going to change. Look at what he did to the post industry. I honestly think FCP wouldn’t be where it is today without what he was doing.
That’s what they do. They really don’t care much at all for the likes of users like myself that are career DOPs. They want to be the tool that enables someone that can’t access an Alexa (or whatever) to practice on and learn their craft.
It’s remarkably socialist in a way. In a strange way what RED promised but haven’t as much delivered.
If you look at all their cameras you’ll notice they aren’t segmented by feature, more that they’re designed for a “category” like broadcast, cinema or action.
JB
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And they probably don't care. They have nothing to protect. If they sell X Ursa Mini Pros with Y profit but they can sell 10x 4kPC @ .3Y profit, then they are probably very happy. The beauty of BMD is they have no one to be beholding to except the private owners of the company. That's why they keep surprising us.
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Not strange at all, and you'll notice in my original post I say "if they want to compete..." If they don't, I give them credit for sticking to their socialist guns. Although they did release a "high end" 4k cam with the Pro moniker, though, so it looks like they're not entirely ignoring that market segment, which is what made me wonder.
Credit where credit is due. (Although to be fair innovating / selling software is arguably worlds apart from hardware/past performance is not a predictor of future success, etc.)
I think this is a really admirable goal, I wish them continued success with it, and I don't think it's at all impossible that they corner the budget/entry level/hobbyist market in a few years' time. I learned on a camera that cost 3x as much and was about 100x less powerful, and I wish it was around when I started.
After analyzing some ProRes footage uploaded by Frederico Res shot with the Pocket4k at NAB, I think it may be indeed Game Over for Panasonic - at least for the GH5s.
The footage shows great detail, no sharpening, nor noise reduction as well as great dynamic range and color which can be pushed without braking apart - like GH5(s) footage would do especially in the red channel.
Very cinematic, am impressed and can't wait to get my hands on it.
Here's the link (shot at 12fps though)
https://mega.nz/#!ZUFhGBLR!xP-H9jsdGGmWmnl6i2vw55uo6qwts34E1CcHER3bMV8
The footage shows great detail, no sharpening, nor noise reduction as well as great dynamic range and color which can be pushed without braking apart - like GH5(s) footage would do especially in the red channel.
Very cinematic, am impressed and can't wait to get my hands on it.
Here's the link (shot at 12fps though)
https://mega.nz/#!ZUFhGBLR!xP-H9jsdGGmWmnl6i2vw55uo6qwts34E1CcHER3bMV8
If you bought a $6,000 dollar product and then the company announced something "better" for $1,300 a year later, you'd do a lot of damage at the 6k level. You're right that this is fine and maybe a calculated move if they never intend to release something more expensive than the UMP. We'll see.
John Brawley
Well-known member
They actually released a more high end aiming camera, the first Ursa. It tanked. No one liked it and it got critiqued heavily for being too big and heavy.
Ahh, maybe you don’t know their history ? You know Grant started making in hardware, capture cards 20 odd years ago right ? They’ve been a hardware company mostly for a long time. They only started doing Resolve when they bought Davinci 7 years ago ? Back then it was a 500K plus system. Pretty much overnight they made it 1000 bucks for the software only version.
They really don’t much care what others are doing. Look at the way they design cameras ! But they been successful at least where many have failed, especially at the pro end of things.
AJA Cion, Dalsa, Aaton, Ikonoscope, Digital Bolex, Panavision (they’ve had two unreleased digital cameras before the DXL)
This is a brutal market and it’s really hard to get right. Even at the lower end this isn’t what you’d call “mass market”. Mom these cameras are pretty niche. I reckon BMD would be really happy if they sold 50 000 pocket cinema cameras in the product life, arguably their most successful camera.
(Typed on a plane using my phone so sorry for the typos)
JB
fboonzaier
Well-known member
MurtlandPhoto
Active member
This is essential reading for anyone struggling to choose a camera/system. So much more goes into the decision besides IQ. Thanks!
MurtlandPhoto
Active member
Completely different cameras. If BM released a new UMPro for $1.3k, then they might self inflict some damage.
It doesn't matter if they're different cameras as they perform the same core function (capturing moving images for display). The more expensive one will be judged against the cheaper one's ability to perform identical functions. If the cheaper one equals/outperforms the more expensive one (which for the record I don't believe is going to happen, but folks in this very thread are forecasting, which is why I mentioned it as a reason it probably won't happen), it will call the pricing structure into question.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Anyone remember when the Red Scarlet was first announced, 3K for $3K? It was going to destroy the industry. Nothing could possibly stand up to it. I went to Jan Crittenden, who was currently selling 1/3" camcorders, and asked her how Panasonic could possibly respond to such news. She said "Call me when it's a product."
Of course, the 3K for $3K never even came out, at all. Months (or years?) later, it was canceled before it even started production.
Who knows what this BMPCC will be, if anything? Right now it's a spec sheet. Maybe it'll be the greatest thing ever. Maybe it'll be a dog. Maybe it'll be late. Maybe it'll be a steal at its price point. Maybe it'll be overpriced at its price point. Maybe it'll overheat in half an hour. Maybe it'll have fixed pattern noise. Maybe it'll outdo a Sony Venice for $1,295. We don't know. Proclamations of what it will or won't be reflect more on the proclaimer.
Point is: you can't buy one now, so why worry about it?
If you're a hobbyist, none of it matters. Buy whatever you want, for whatever reason, whenever. If you're a pro, you probably know better than to bet your job on a new/untested product so don't rush to be the first one to buy it, so sit back and wait for the reviews to come in.
Of course, the 3K for $3K never even came out, at all. Months (or years?) later, it was canceled before it even started production.
Who knows what this BMPCC will be, if anything? Right now it's a spec sheet. Maybe it'll be the greatest thing ever. Maybe it'll be a dog. Maybe it'll be late. Maybe it'll be a steal at its price point. Maybe it'll be overpriced at its price point. Maybe it'll overheat in half an hour. Maybe it'll have fixed pattern noise. Maybe it'll outdo a Sony Venice for $1,295. We don't know. Proclamations of what it will or won't be reflect more on the proclaimer.
Point is: you can't buy one now, so why worry about it?
If you're a hobbyist, none of it matters. Buy whatever you want, for whatever reason, whenever. If you're a pro, you probably know better than to bet your job on a new/untested product so don't rush to be the first one to buy it, so sit back and wait for the reviews to come in.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Barry kills it, as usual.
Yeah, he just ruins everything by being realistic. In my dreams I was surrounded by my $1295 4k raw cameras as I threw my GH5(s) cameras to the wind. Fairies we're floating along helping me as I shot the most epic vlog ever in 4k raw. It received 10 million views. This was the camera for me. 4k raw! I had to have it. I was king of Youtube..... another balloon busted. Thanks Barry.