GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

[Thomas Smet]

So in bullet point form, what are the main drawbacks of this camera?

- Poor battery life (20-60 min per battery; expect ~30ish)
- No swivel screen; no VF
- Possible reliability issues (or at least, not as robust as sony-panny-canon-arri-etc.)
- Quality of lowlight (base ISO 400/3200 as per rep) is TBD
- Windowed slow motion (I believe only above 60fps in HD mode?)
- No IBIS

Anything else? Especially compared to a GHx camera.

Not being negative, just trying to sort out the drawbacks from the info I can see and think through the gotchas.

Here are the solutions to the problems I listed

- External hawk woods gripper or sticky battery via d-tap, or other
- smallHD focus for swivel if needed
- Other are either unknowns, or not necessarily negatives as much as differences

I actually consider some of those a pro.

Don't forget to add:

-lack of OLPF - can cause rather ugly aliasing and moire. I of course also would love raw and ProRes but not at the expense of having the image ruined by aliasing and moire which I also consider to be artifacts that make material look like electronic video.

- File sizes - It is a concern for a lot of people. Maybe not everybody but it is a reality that the files will be larger and to a ton of people they will not see much of a difference. I know the file size thing seems silly to some of us but it is a valid concern for many and without a doubt a con to the Pocket. You don't get better quality without a tradeoff.

- Can't shoot decent stills. Even the GH5S starts to fall into this category due to the 10mp stills. The Pocket has even smaller stills due to the 16x9 sensor vs the GH5s 4x3 sensor. a 8"x10" cropped print from the Pocket results in 6mp stills which is pretty sad really. So it can shoot stills which is cool but they are pretty small for print.

- Ability to use a flash. Since it isn't a DSLR is there any way to ever use a flash with the camera to shoot stills? How would it trigger?

- Anamorphic - I have no interest in this but others are kind of into it.

- Baked in realism color profiles - Yeah I realize some consider this a massive plus but some users still prefer t shoot a look in camera that will be close to their final look. I know not much of a con for some of you but it can be a con for somebody that wants a high quality camera with an out of the box look to it. Canon users still insist on loving their DSLRS due to that out of the box color so its still la thing out there.

- More expensive recoding options. The goes along with the storage thing but even if one shoots short segments the media required is still of a higher grade and will cost more. Likely not a big deal to everybody but it will be a con for some users. Some users also will not to deal with an external SSD. To each their own of course. Personally I would never waste money on c-fast but I would use a SSD with the Pocket.

 

[joe12south]

Well it depends what you are shooting. I do not see the point of RAW for shooting a 3 hour event. The GH5S can do that which is why I have a GH5 and GH5S. For my needs they compete with $5000 and up camcorders shooting UHD60P like the Sony FS7 ( or the new Sony PXW-Z190 and PXW-Z280 ) not film cameras. To equip the BM4K I would need a battery system and a 2T external drive as well as another monitor as I could not see that screen up on a tripod above my head. Would also need complete remote control as without seeing the screen I could not control the camera either. I can do that with the Panasonic App that is available for iOS and Android. Not sure what the Bluetooth control is or does and with what operating system or if it up to developers to create one ? As a low cost way of competing with more expensive film cameras I would agree it looks great. I do not think it fits my needs or work flow though.

No doubt, Ron. You have a very specific, very "not-cinema", need for a camera. You need a "video" camera, and the GH series fits the bill nicely.

 

[joe12south]

FYI, for anyone looking for very long run times in a convenient form factor: http://www.coreswx.com/product/pbe-lpe6/

 

[NorBro]

PowerBases from Switronix (now Core SWX) were always my #1 go-to for all BM/DSLR/mirrorless cams...easily 10+ hours for the BMPCC.

The camera plate built into the battery is great...just sits right under the camera (rather than inconveniently on rails).

 

[joe12south]

I actually consider some of those a pro.

Don't forget to add:

-lack of OLPF - can cause rather ugly aliasing and moire. I of course also would love raw and ProRes but not at the expense of having the image ruined by aliasing and moire which I also consider to be artifacts that make material look like electronic video.

- File sizes - It is a concern for a lot of people. Maybe not everybody but it is a reality that the files will be larger and to a ton of people they will not see much of a difference. I know the file size thing seems silly to some of us but it is a valid concern for many and without a doubt a con to the Pocket. You don't get better quality without a tradeoff.

- Can't shoot decent stills. Even the GH5S starts to fall into this category due to the 10mp stills. The Pocket has even smaller stills due to the 16x9 sensor vs the GH5s 4x3 sensor. a 8"x10" cropped print from the Pocket results in 6mp stills which is pretty sad really. So it can shoot stills which is cool but they are pretty small for print.

- Ability to use a flash. Since it isn't a DSLR is there any way to ever use a flash with the camera to shoot stills? How would it trigger?

- Anamorphic - I have no interest in this but others are kind of into it.

- Baked in realism color profiles - Yeah I realize some consider this a massive plus but some users still prefer t shoot a look in camera that will be close to their final look. I know not much of a con for some of you but it can be a con for somebody that wants a high quality camera with an out of the box look to it. Canon users still insist on loving their DSLRS due to that out of the box color so its still la thing out there.

- More expensive recoding options. The goes along with the storage thing but even if one shoots short segments the media required is still of a higher grade and will cost more. Likely not a big deal to everybody but it will be a con for some users. Some users also will not to deal with an external SSD. To each their own of course. Personally I would never waste money on c-fast but I would use a SSD with the Pocket.

Baked-in profiles is not an issue - the BMPCC4K can bake LUT's into the ProRes recording. That's like profiles on steroids!

 

[NorBro]

It also has 'Video' and 'Extended' modes, both which are baked profiles (the 'Extended' attempts to preserve more DR).

I think of these as 'Natural' and 'CineD/V' when comparing.

 

[John Brawley]

Few things, after reading through the thread.

The camera does 12bit LOG RAW or 10 Bit ProRes.

The USB-C only charges when the camera is turned off.

The battery door is removable.

The screen is the same as used on the Video Assist 5”

I’m 99% sure it will be up to 60 FPS full sensor and windowed after that to 120 FPS.

I’m also 99% sure they will not use an OLPF. If they did it would be a first for them and they would likely announce it as a point of difference.

Things I’m speculating about...

I’d be surprised if it didn’t do some form of anamorphic. Was it ever said that it wasn’t ? They already have this in the Ursa Mini and they very clearly state that it’s a “4/3” sensor. Unless of course doing that delays it’s release in which case they’ll skip it (forever).

This camera to me is more of a spiritual BMCC successor than a Pocket cinema camera 2. It shoots RAW and ProRes with a 5” touch screen in a DSLR form using low cost open standard consumer grade media. It might be more useful to think of the differences between those two cameras.

Complaining about the storage is kind of like complaining about what the camera is good at. It’s a high bit depth, high data rate low compression camera. To complain about the data / media costs or the codec choices is to complain about the whole point of difference this camera offers.

This is not your mother’s car. This is the first brand new car that you bought for yourself.

JB

 

[Jim Simon]

half a year from now there may be some other new product on the horizon that beats that one.

I wouldn't complain about that. If someone can beat the image quality/price of the Pocket 4K...

 

[Tom Roper]

Andrew Reid says BMPCC is using the same sensor in the GH5s.

https://www.eoshd.com/2018/04/1295-blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k-completely-nuts/

 

[Jim Simon]

unless you *need* full-sensor 4:3 anamorphic, it's game over for the GH5s.

And that's really the viewpoint I had when I started this thread. Until the BM announcement at NAB, the 5s was probably the best option I had for a 4K upgrade. But needing two cameras, that $5,000 price tag is no small issue for me.

With the Pocket 4K announced, offering almost certainly a better image at half the price, the 5s is off the table.

 

[Jim Simon]

Andrew Reid says BMPCC is using the same sensor in the GH5s.

Actually, he speculates about that. It might be true, but I have some doubt. For starters, aren't the native ISO's different?

Additionally, there is an interview with Grant Petty. He talks a bit fast, and it's very possible I misunderstood, but I thought he said the sensor was developed in-house, and did not come from a third-party.

 

[Tom Roper]

Actually, he speculates about that. It might be true, but I have some doubt. For starters, aren't the native ISO's different?

Additionally, there is an interview with Grant Petty. He talks a bit fast, and it's very possible I misunderstood, but I thought he said the sensor was developed in-house, and did not come from a third-party.

Panasonic never confirmed they used an outsourced sensor either but everybody knows they did. Pretty obvious it’s the same Sony sensor. Agree with Andy Reid on this one.

 

[Bern Caughey]

I’m also 99% sure they will not use an OLPF. If they did it would be a first for them and they would likely announce it as a point of difference.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Lack of OLPF is one of my biggest concerns, but put down a deposit anyways, & will reserve judgement until I see footage.

Also want to apologize for accidentally down-voting your post. Wish there was a way to correct that mistake.

 

[John Brawley]

Panasonic never confirmed they used an outsourced sensor either but everybody knows they did. Pretty obvious it’s the same Sony sensor. Agree with Andy Reid on this one.

It's also important to understand that the "same sensor" doesn't really mean anything because there are many points of customisation with a sensor and then how you implement it in camera. Otherwise the cameras would look the same shooting RAW right ?

They won't, and theres a million reasons why. But it's a bit simplistic to say "same sensor" as it only points to very general similarities.

JB

 

[filmguy123]

- lack of OLPF
- File sizes
- Can't shoot decent stills.
- Ability to use a flash.
- Anamorphic
- Baked in realism color profiles
- More expensive recoding options.

- GH5 doesn't have OLPF
- File sizes = more expensive recording options so that's 2 items; but a big sell of the GH line is the addition of 400mbps ALL-I. Recording to ProRes is similar size requirement. And largely seen as a plus. Except it doesn't require expensive v90 SD cards
- Stills / Flash - don't use, don't care - GH5 can add a flash but doesn't have one on body anyway
- Anamorphic - as another user requested, you should need a license to shoot this... I think few people will care
- Baked in - as others said, add a LUT in camera and easy to adjustment layer add or copy/paste add in post


(not criticizing your list - just thinking out loud!)

Is there anything else workflow wise on the camera? I've been reading through all the specs and features and looking at buttons etc. and it really doesn't seem like too much, but it's always in the details. One thing I like on the GHx line is how I can quickly rotate the top dial to go to presets IE a VFR HD preset, a 4K ALL-I preset, an indoor high ISO cine-D profile preset, etc.

What else?

 

[filmguy123]

FYI, for anyone looking for very long run times in a convenient form factor: http://www.coreswx.com/product/pbe-lpe6/

This thing looks fantastic.

Thoughts on this VS the hawkwoods sticky (velcro) or gripper (rails) batteries?
http://www.hawkwoods.co.uk/Blog/Gripper_15mm_Bar_Battery_System

 

[filmguy123]

How might a BMD match in a workflow with EVA1 and GHx cameras? This looks nice, but it seems the color science may be very different and make it the odd one out?

Anyone know about this?

Re: HDD. Thinking you could take any current existing SSDs used for atomos and drop into a USB C enclosure such as this:

Satechi Aluminum 2.5-inch USB Type C 3.1 External HDD Hard Drive Disk Enclosure Case with USB C Interface for HDD and SSD (Space Gray) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FWT2N3K/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_.1z0Ab4NSNTB6

Yeah? Then you could share SSDs between atomos, BMD, or even use as a laptop external edit drive.

Or this?

 

[Tom Roper]

It's also important to understand that the "same sensor" doesn't really mean anything because there are many points of customisation with a sensor and then how you implement it in camera. Otherwise the cameras would look the same shooting RAW right ?

They won't, and theres a million reasons why. But it's a bit simplistic to say "same sensor" as it only points to very general similarities.

JB

I agree it is important to understand customization, the assumption is that everyone already knows that. But "same sensor" is not an overly simplistic term because it is the foundation of the camera, no getting around this. The premise that BMD customization for a camera not shipping at the earliest until September spells doom for a camera already well into its second year is nonsense. I'm sure that with Panasonic marketing advantage, sales and distribution channels it's going to have handily outsold the BMPCC over its run, and in the end it will have run its course and into the next generation without the BMPCC having been more than a footnote. That's what game over means. Debating the applicability of features, usefulness for a purpose is perfectly appropriate but "game over" is an inflammatory term and the sole reason this thread is 23 pages of bloat.

 

[NorBro]

According to B&H's 'Best Sellers' list (if this means most units sold), the 4K Pocket already outsold both - the GH5 and GH5S - which I honestly find hard to believe, but not sure what else it would mean. Maybe most cameras sold in a certain time frame or most cameras recently sold, IDK. (And preorders in this case would mean sales.)

I can easily see hundreds of thousands of preorders by September.

 

[John Brawley]

I agree it is important to understand customization, the assumption is that everyone already knows that. But "same sensor" is not an overly simplistic term because it is the foundation of the camera, no getting around this.

Sure, but there are many ways to customise an off the shelf sensor in hardware alone and THEN further once you get images from it in camera. That's at a deep engineering level. You could also tweak the CFA for example. Then other choices like NR or sharpening / coring for example add to that, choices about how the matrix is set up. There's three layers of difference right there. Even choices about how fast to clock the sensor can make huge differences to performance.

On top of that we then add codecs and bit depth. What is the internal bit depth pipe inside the camera for exemple ? I know in BMD cameras it's greater than 20 bit on their previous sensors dithering to 16 bit linear in camera. Then what codecs does it record to, how to you 'pre-process" that image to fit it into a lower bit depth codec or sometimes with reduced chroma sub sampling. All these choices get made about how to get this image onto your screen that happen way after the senor recoded a photon of light.

Hence, it's pretty simplistic to say it's the same sensor and extrapolate to imaging differences from there.

There are plenty of examples of different companies using the same sensors and getting very different visual results. I mean no one even blinked that Pany who have a long long record of their own innovative sensor designs are choosing to use a sony sensor in the first place right ?

Olympus have long used a mix of Sony and Panny sesnors too. Again, very visually different results when you compare the same sensors in their bodies to each other.

For the inevitable car comparison, it's like saying you have a sony engine, but the chassis, the drive chain, the fuel management, there's so many ways the car can turn out differently. It's just one (important) part of the imaging chain.

The premise that BMD customization for a camera not shipping at the earliest until September spells doom for a camera already well into its second year is nonsense.

I agree, it's a silly statement. They are aimed at different users.