GH5 Game Over, Panasonic
- Thread starter Jim Simon
- Start date
Imamacuser
Veteran
The GH5 does 400 mbps right? So that's 50 MB/s.
And it does 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 150 Mbps, which is 19 MB/sec.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Which also happens to be 1/5 the size of 1:4 raw or ProRes422 HQ.
We only bring this up because it is and should be a valid concern to many users. The prospect of low compression is pretty darn awesome until one factors in the tradeoffs. Compression exists for a darn good reason and it isn't hard to do the match and realize that there are now a ton of tests out there from the GH5 and EVA1 that show the 150mbps and 400mbps to visually be similar. There are also plenty of tests to show the same to to be true of GH5 10bit material and ProRes. If that continues to be true in extreme cases like shooting in the middle of a hurricane and yet to be seen and very difficult to really test but so far the 10bit from the GH5 holds up as well for many users as ProRes.
Of course ProRes is not raw and shooting raw can provide certain advantages but not everybody needs raw. A lot of Hollywood movies don't even shoot raw now and instead opt for ProRes. This notion that one needs raw to be successful is getting a bit ridiculous. Of course its cool to have but there is so much more that makes a camera productive to some users other than hey it has raw thats cool.
So no it is not game over for Panasonic. No other camera provides the amazing low compressed video quality of the GH5 while keeping the file sizes somewhat manageable. Even EVA1 users are realizing just how good the 150mbps actually is in a lot of situations. A 5:1 compression ratio while maintaining the same overall image quality is pretty darn impressive and the key to video compression efficiency. BMD may do some good things with image sensors but honestly this camera biggest hinderance is that lack of a good efficient video compression format for the large amount of users that are honestly even finding the 150mbps on the GH5 to be too larger and are looking forward to a HEVC future.
We only bring this up because it is and should be a valid concern to many users. The prospect of low compression is pretty darn awesome until one factors in the tradeoffs. Compression exists for a darn good reason and it isn't hard to do the match and realize that there are now a ton of tests out there from the GH5 and EVA1 that show the 150mbps and 400mbps to visually be similar. There are also plenty of tests to show the same to to be true of GH5 10bit material and ProRes. If that continues to be true in extreme cases like shooting in the middle of a hurricane and yet to be seen and very difficult to really test but so far the 10bit from the GH5 holds up as well for many users as ProRes.
Of course ProRes is not raw and shooting raw can provide certain advantages but not everybody needs raw. A lot of Hollywood movies don't even shoot raw now and instead opt for ProRes. This notion that one needs raw to be successful is getting a bit ridiculous. Of course its cool to have but there is so much more that makes a camera productive to some users other than hey it has raw thats cool.
So no it is not game over for Panasonic. No other camera provides the amazing low compressed video quality of the GH5 while keeping the file sizes somewhat manageable. Even EVA1 users are realizing just how good the 150mbps actually is in a lot of situations. A 5:1 compression ratio while maintaining the same overall image quality is pretty darn impressive and the key to video compression efficiency. BMD may do some good things with image sensors but honestly this camera biggest hinderance is that lack of a good efficient video compression format for the large amount of users that are honestly even finding the 150mbps on the GH5 to be too larger and are looking forward to a HEVC future.
Not being facetious...if you can charge the battery with power through the USB port, what's the drawback?
Imamacuser
Veteran
You can charge the LP-E6 battery with a power bank through USB-C ONLY when the camera is OFF. Even if you could charge it through USB while the cameras is on, all it would do is extend the life of the LP-E6 battery, as USB only carries 5v which can't keep up with a 7v draw.
combatentropy
Veteran
The best-sounding codec right now to me is Cineform Intermediate.
- about the same quality and bitrates as ProRes (maybe a little better)
- now an open standard (http://www.4kshooters.net/2015/06/2...rdized-and-officially-an-open-codec-standard/) and even open source (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?357317-CineForm-Goes-Open-Source)
- about the same quality and bitrates as ProRes (maybe a little better)
- now an open standard (http://www.4kshooters.net/2015/06/2...rdized-and-officially-an-open-codec-standard/) and even open source (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?357317-CineForm-Goes-Open-Source)
fboonzaier
Well-known member
Comparing prices between the BMPCC4K...at this stage an idea (any footage out yet?) and the GH5 or 5s without also comparing the computing requirements for post, and worst even, reliably archiving all the footage shot with it (it is a cinema camera!) seems impractical. If used for a wedding, as far as the client is concerned, perhaps even more so....that's not even accounting for cost of just shooting with it. I can see it's place as a discreet tool for grabbing shots on a feature that already has all the other hardware and infrastructure in place, if the image/rolling shutter,moire does not disappoint! For someone just playing that's fine, but this specs out as a professional tool...and data hungry...if the footage shot on this is do or die important, this will require a proper raid system...shooting Prores HQ on GH5 cameras and the Shogun gobbles up terabytes shockingly fast, so price wise the GH5 or 5s is still a bargain IMO. Until this is out in the wild, it's all just speculation. The GH cameras on the other hand, require a memory card and you're out and around shooting...
Which is why I will charge more if the client wants 4K.
Yep. And up until this announcement, the 5s was my frontrunner for new equipment.
Now I can get two P4Ks for the price of one 5s. :2vrolijk_08:
Yeah...delivery. :nads:
I can't speak for others, but...my notion is that I want RAW because both the image and the post workflow are superior.
I don't use it for everything. But I do for many projects, and having that option at this price is AAAAAAmaziiiiiing!
This is another long time dream of mine, for camera makers to give Apple the finger, drop ProRes and QuickTime entirely and start using Cineform in the MXF wrapper. (They do offer a RAW option as well.)
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Good luck with that. Everybody else will change the same for 4k that makes practical sense. The fact that you would even consider doing just HD and charge more for 4k is pretty mind boggling. Remind me to never hire you.
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
To put the storage needs more into perspective here. Not only does the Pocket need more space to store video due to its size but it also needs faster media.
The GH5 using a 128GB card fast enough for 150mbps costs about $60-80 depending on brand. A 128GB SD card fast enough for 4k ProRes cost about $230. Not only does the card cost a lot more but it also holds 1/5 the video so you need to buy 5 cards to record the same amount of video. Now you are looking at $78 for a transcend Sd card vs $1,150 for enough Sony SD cards fast enough to record ProRes.
Of course BMD was smart enough to include the ability to record to external device. Good thing they did or else the Pocket would be very impractical for long form events. Even with the ability to use SSD you still need a 1TB SSD to record as much as the GH5 with a 128GB Sd crd. A decent external 1TB SSD drive is $350. Still almost 5x the cost of the GH5 shooting similar quality. Not to mention the hassle and risk of using an external drive that could come disconnected. You also need to factor in where do you safely store these SSD drives during a shoot? I can keep a pouch of SD cards in a shirt pocket with me at all times to prevent loss or theft. You can't do that with a SSD drive.
GH5 also has dual SD slots which means you can record forever as long as you have enough cards. For the same cost of the Ssd drive for the Pocket you can record to 5 128GB SD cards by swapping out one card as it fills up. That still means you can record 5x more video with the GH5 for the same cost.
That doesn't even get into editing costs and archiving costs. How will the projects be archived? Keep the files as is which means 5x more hard drives to purchase to store the data or convert the material to h.264 after the project is completed. That takes a lot of time. Time is money.
What about editing drives? GH5 material can be edited from a single external hard drive with ease. ProRes is more efficient in terms of speed but if you work on multi-cam projects you will need a raid or SSD to handle the data load. Look forward to another investment in editing storage.
HD was easy to handle ProRes. HDD made sense with ProRes HD but not so much with ProRes 4k. The data load is too much for a single HDD.
This doesn't even get into raw which is a much larger drag on a system. Raw HD is vastly easier for a desktop or laptop computer to handle. 4k is again a whole other story. You may find yourself suddenly investing in a 8, 10, or 18 core machine to work with a large volume of 4k raw projects. Especially if one creates long form projects with a quick turn around.
All stuff to really factor in when you no longer have a solid looking video format in 150mbps. In a perfect world I would only ever shoot ProRes but the logistics of it are just not very practical right now. Even if storage prices come down that means the storage for the Gh5 material also comes down. No matter how you look at it the GH5 will always bee 5x more affordable to shoot with. Does the Pocket deliver 5x better quality for that increase in cost? Not by a long shot. The biggest mistake BMD makes with these cameras is not investing in a 150mbps type of compression as an alternative to the raw and ProRes. when you factor in some users are still perfectly fine with the 8bit 4:2:0 100mbps mode of the GH5 these cost savings get even larger.
The GH5 using a 128GB card fast enough for 150mbps costs about $60-80 depending on brand. A 128GB SD card fast enough for 4k ProRes cost about $230. Not only does the card cost a lot more but it also holds 1/5 the video so you need to buy 5 cards to record the same amount of video. Now you are looking at $78 for a transcend Sd card vs $1,150 for enough Sony SD cards fast enough to record ProRes.
Of course BMD was smart enough to include the ability to record to external device. Good thing they did or else the Pocket would be very impractical for long form events. Even with the ability to use SSD you still need a 1TB SSD to record as much as the GH5 with a 128GB Sd crd. A decent external 1TB SSD drive is $350. Still almost 5x the cost of the GH5 shooting similar quality. Not to mention the hassle and risk of using an external drive that could come disconnected. You also need to factor in where do you safely store these SSD drives during a shoot? I can keep a pouch of SD cards in a shirt pocket with me at all times to prevent loss or theft. You can't do that with a SSD drive.
GH5 also has dual SD slots which means you can record forever as long as you have enough cards. For the same cost of the Ssd drive for the Pocket you can record to 5 128GB SD cards by swapping out one card as it fills up. That still means you can record 5x more video with the GH5 for the same cost.
That doesn't even get into editing costs and archiving costs. How will the projects be archived? Keep the files as is which means 5x more hard drives to purchase to store the data or convert the material to h.264 after the project is completed. That takes a lot of time. Time is money.
What about editing drives? GH5 material can be edited from a single external hard drive with ease. ProRes is more efficient in terms of speed but if you work on multi-cam projects you will need a raid or SSD to handle the data load. Look forward to another investment in editing storage.
HD was easy to handle ProRes. HDD made sense with ProRes HD but not so much with ProRes 4k. The data load is too much for a single HDD.
This doesn't even get into raw which is a much larger drag on a system. Raw HD is vastly easier for a desktop or laptop computer to handle. 4k is again a whole other story. You may find yourself suddenly investing in a 8, 10, or 18 core machine to work with a large volume of 4k raw projects. Especially if one creates long form projects with a quick turn around.
All stuff to really factor in when you no longer have a solid looking video format in 150mbps. In a perfect world I would only ever shoot ProRes but the logistics of it are just not very practical right now. Even if storage prices come down that means the storage for the Gh5 material also comes down. No matter how you look at it the GH5 will always bee 5x more affordable to shoot with. Does the Pocket deliver 5x better quality for that increase in cost? Not by a long shot. The biggest mistake BMD makes with these cameras is not investing in a 150mbps type of compression as an alternative to the raw and ProRes. when you factor in some users are still perfectly fine with the 8bit 4:2:0 100mbps mode of the GH5 these cost savings get even larger.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Wow. You are unbelievably stretching, man.
I only say this for any younger or newer people in the business who may be interested in the camera but read something like that and get discouraged.
---
It's nothing like the nightmare that post makes it appear to be if you use it for reasonable productions.
If you film 10-hour depositions or interviews day in and day out or tons of plays or events in their entirety, it is definitely not an ideal option unless you're prepared to spend the money for power and media.
For all of the creative minds that may shoot music videos, commercials, short films, fashion films, short projects, etc...explore this option.
Many people will be.
I only say this for any younger or newer people in the business who may be interested in the camera but read something like that and get discouraged.
---
It's nothing like the nightmare that post makes it appear to be if you use it for reasonable productions.
If you film 10-hour depositions or interviews day in and day out or tons of plays or events in their entirety, it is definitely not an ideal option unless you're prepared to spend the money for power and media.
For all of the creative minds that may shoot music videos, commercials, short films, fashion films, short projects, etc...explore this option.
Many people will be.
filmguy123
Veteran
This seems dramatic... besides RAW the camera can record ProRes 422 internally, and takes Cfast, SD, and external USB drives.
The world has been moving to higher bitrate ALL-I codecs rapidly and storage prices are decreasing faster than CPU/GPU prices now. These codecs also come with a ton of upsides.
Given that the pocket camera costs less than most of my lenses and almost half a GH5s - with XLR audio included - the extra cost of storage is trivial.
Norbro is right. This is a great camera. I think I'll be sticking to my GHx cams but I might have to pick one up just to play anyway. It won't be for everyone, it has its issues, it's not a homerun against the GHx line by any stretch, but unless you own Panasonic stock let's not over exaggerate it's shortcomings - this thing is killer.
Let's just hope they add ProRes RAW before fall - if they could get that recording not just to USB externally but also internally to v90 SD card as well, SHOOT.
The world has been moving to higher bitrate ALL-I codecs rapidly and storage prices are decreasing faster than CPU/GPU prices now. These codecs also come with a ton of upsides.
Given that the pocket camera costs less than most of my lenses and almost half a GH5s - with XLR audio included - the extra cost of storage is trivial.
Norbro is right. This is a great camera. I think I'll be sticking to my GHx cams but I might have to pick one up just to play anyway. It won't be for everyone, it has its issues, it's not a homerun against the GHx line by any stretch, but unless you own Panasonic stock let's not over exaggerate it's shortcomings - this thing is killer.
Let's just hope they add ProRes RAW before fall - if they could get that recording not just to USB externally but also internally to v90 SD card as well, SHOOT.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
Actually, on a thread called GH5 game over Panasonic not stretching at all...I own a GH5 and have also picked up an incredible amount of gear off eBay because of hype that never leads to anything practical in terms of making that gear earn for the individual...so looking at any gear being released on a forum realistically, is beneficial for the DVX community IMO