Other: FX6 Variable ND vs. Tiffen .9 ND filter

Sony themselves have stated the variable ND fitted to many Sony cameras does introduce a colour shift that changes depending on how much ND you use. Sony explained it with comments along the lines of: "When using Sony E-Mount lenses that communicate with the camera's software the software adds an offset to the WB as you switch the ND in or out and or change the amount of ND. Generally you are not aware of these color shifts as they are dynamically being corrected for in real time as you add or adjust the eND."

If you watch carefully when you engage or disengage the eND you can sometimes glimpse a fraction of a second where the camera's electronic offset that corrects for the shift is applied just as the filter comes in. It's like adding a WB offset in the WB offset menu manually, but this is an eND WB offset which is added in real time. Then, once the filter is in place, the colours appear completely normal again.

All this auto WB offsetting along with any lens distortion correction, peripheral illumination and CA correction comes into effect when using Sony lenses that communicate with the camera software. This does not happen when using non-electronic lenses that do not communicate with the camera. This is the main reason why the Venice does not run eND and why the engineers developed the Venice's wide range dual filter servo-controlled 8-step mechanical ND filter system. Claudio Miranda made the comment when shooting with the Venice 2 that he observed no change in colorimetry between ND3 all the way to 2.4. Most modern cine lenses carry ARRI's LDS and Cooke's i Technology Protocol, but these have no relationship to the protocols built into the Sony cameras that run E-Mount with eND and WB offsetting along with their associated lens corrections. The eND is an amazing tool for a variety of reasons. DOF and light control being the main reasons, along with the quicker workflow of not having to carry external filtration and the rigging to run that. i.e. matte boxes and the like. All great pluses in my opinion. For all the eND's pluses though, I have seen some things in post that I have never seen before with regular full field flat glass NDs. Firstly, I've now seen two FX9 cameras that developed some odd flickering in their eND filters. Both those operators had to get the eNDs replaced in their cameras. And secondly, a PXW-Z190 that suffered some kind of eND filter damage when shooting the sun. You make up your own choices to suit your workflow, balancing all the plus, minus factors against that workflow. Overall for me the eND is 9.9/10 in most cases. So much so that I have sold my 4x 56" filters as they were gathering dust most of the time.

Chris Young
 
Doug, Doug.
Its a sad or happy day when Im taking the moderate position.

Mr Jensen makes test for the 98% - he can be applauded for that. But should acknowledge thre is a 2% who will pick holes, maybe they work in industry niches.. photographing colour accurate clothing, working in extrem low light , working in horrid lit arenas or in the brightest desert and wanting f1.2

Those 2% need acknowledgeing

And MrBee fails to acknowlge the useful service Doug provies to the 98% but has fair point that as one of the 2% his voice is valid.But should be seen as part of the 2%

--
Im prepping to shot a feature at the moment. FX9 is A. We know there will be no dinking with a stupid matte box and pile of solids and are very happy.
 
Imho, a true "2%er" would not be using an FX6 for their ultra important high paying work. There is the mismatch - when beer pocket book folks want champagne features! :)
 
Doug Bee said:
I'm surprised by the aggression and defensiveness. .
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I'm sorry if that's the way I came across. No offense was intended and I thought were were just having a lively discussion. I like to push back and I like other people to push back when they disagree. If I wanted to say whatever I wanted with no debate I'd start a blog. I didn't relaize Tiffen fitlers were substandard, so that is interesting to learn from this discussion. Ironically, like you, I don't have time right now to watch the videos you linked to, but I will when I can.

I was serious though when I offered to do another test if someone wants to send me a better filter.
 
It's been a long time (somewhere between 8 and 10 years) since I swore off the Tiffen ND's for the reasons listed here--I measured variations in color temp up to 600 degrees amongst them, plus green/magenta shifts. I switched to Mitimos back then which were quite delicate, and later cycled through Formatt and Schneider and a certain point became less concerned as everything I shoot gets balanced in the grade anyway. But yes, I also agree that in most instances you start to see the more egregious issues once you move beyond N.9.
 
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Different cameras, different realistic expectations. That is how everything works. I should amend my reply to say "a true 2%er would not be using an FX6 (and expecting it to perform above its price point) for their ultra important high paying work".
 
Thanks for posting your test results Doug.
I wonder if camera companies could essentially eliminate the need for ND filters by making cameras with multiple sensor gain circuits starting at ISO 1.5.

Liquid crystal shutter glass shifts magenta as you increase the voltage to dial in attenuation.
Outside of Sony forcing you to use their lenses, I don't understand why the camera has to communicate with the lens in order to dynamically shift the white balance tint proportional to the eND shift.

I've always heard that Tiffen was good, but their lower-end filters that I've used have proved lackluster to equivalents from competitors like Hoya. Their VND shifted the whole image blue, and their standard NDs shifted a little green, evan at just 2 stops, although to be fair, those filters were ones from the 80s that I borrowed from my Dad, so maybe the recent ones are more neutral.

Reviews of the Tiffen Waterwhite filters looked really good when they came out, but you never know if the people shilling for manufacturers are correcting out color cast to increase affiliate link sales.

If you're flush with cash, Schneider is always a good option, but Formatt Firecrest is a good "affordable" option, although, they had a few bad manufacturing runs years back, so you should always test your filters.
 
Imamacuser said:
. . . so you should always test your filters.
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Good advice. I rarely use anything but built-in ND fitlers, so testing ND ftilers was not even on my radar. How hard is it to make an ND? I assumed they were all basically the same -- but therein lies the mistake of making assumptions.
 
I've noticed for a long time that many ND filters surprisingtly are not actually neutral and the tiffens' I've used were not reliable, Neither were b+W and a host of other brands. I've had good luck with Format Firecrest that are not too expensive. I did a bunch of tests with the FX9 variable ND and a pola in front -after Alister Chapman warned about it . Tried both Linear and circular. Generally it was Ok but sometimes I saw odd results where part of the shot was shaded more than another. For the life of me I couldn't come up with any general rules about what was going on except "user be careful".

I do always carry an N3 with me these days which I use fairly often because the lightest electronic variable ND is 2 stops. It comes in handy.
 
LennyLevy said:
I do always carry an N3 with me these days which I use fairly often because the lightest electronic variable ND is 2 stops. It comes in handy.
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As much as I love variable ND, I bump up against that shortcoming all the time where I want some ND but 2-stops is too much and there's no time to fart around with glass filters. I'd gladly pay extra to have a variable ND that starts at 0.
There's no pleasing some people . . . that's just what Jesus said, sir.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
As much as I love variable ND, I bump up against that shortcoming all the time where I want some ND but 2-stops is too much and there's no time to fart around with glass filters. I'd gladly pay extra to have a variable ND that starts at 0.
There's no pleasing some people . . . that's just what Jesus said, sir.
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I think the Sony electronic ND system is pretty cool and I'd love to have it on any of my cameras. But I agree with you about being forced into the wrong amount of ND at the low end.

I love my Freewell magnetic vari ND systems which I bought last year. You screw on a magnetic receiver and keep it on the lens. Then you magnetically attach the base layer which is a 1 stop ND and combines with the outer ring to perform variable ND. There are 2 outer rings - a 2 to 5 stop and a 6 to 9 stop, both with hard stops at the edges of the range.

So, what's nice is if I dial down to 2 stops of ND and want to go even lower, i can get it down to 1 stop in about 5 seconds of removing the ring and putting it in my filter ring fanny pack. Magnetic filters have completely changed the game for me.

Of course, I'm not sure it's of any use to anyone who already has the electronic ND system because it's a low payoff to bother with the system...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...S3uqQijZR6e7jqq4xe0q8sWspCifA8ZcVs9zKXx3_quT4
 
Since my A1 doesn't have any built-in ND, the Freewell system might be something I could use. If I ordered the package you have linked to (and chose the right filter size) would that give me everything I need or are there other components use to use it they way you describe?
 
Doug Jensen said:
Since my A1 doesn't have any built-in ND, the Freewell system might be something I could use. If I ordered the package you have linked to (and chose the right filter size) would that give me everything I need or are there other components use to use it they way you describe?
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Yes that product has everything you need to screw into an 82mm lens thread and use the 1-stop ND or the vari ND or polarizer options. Nothing else required.

But they have an updated version: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...w_k2_vndkit_k2_versatile_magnetic_filter.html

I haven't tried the updated version, so I'm not sure it's as good. But it has a couple standout features: first and foremost, it looks like you can buy replacement filter rings through the Freewell website for $130/ea. With the original system that I have 3 copies of, replacement parts are not available except for the magnetic filter holder and the lens cap. So I guess I would have to buy a whole new set if I lose a filter ring. It seems like the new K2 version is one size fits all, with numerous adapter rings included. I assume that they're able to manufacture replacement parts now because they only have to worry about supplying a single size rather than many.

Additionally, it looks like the new K2 version goes from 1 to 5 stops with its lower-strength vari ND ring rather than 2 to 5 as with the version I have. I'm not sure how they manage that with the base layer, which I'm assuming is not a 1-stop ND anymore. But if the quality of the filter is the same as before, then that's an advantage (although like I said, pulling off the filter ring on the version i have is very quick).

The new version also has a way of using graduated ND filters, although I doubt I would take advantage of that.

A few notes on the version that I have -- the mist filter base is too strong for me for basically anything and I've always left it at home.

The coatings and flare resistance are excellent. they handle backlight super well. In some cases, the filter improves the flare resistance of some poorly-coated lenses I have. But if memory serves me, the filters are susceptible to veiling glare from light coming from high above, like a 15-degree angle or something. It's easily blocked with a lens hood or eyebrow or something, so in practice it's not a huge problem.

My only pet peeve is that you have to look at the side of the filter when you put on the vari ND ring so you can line up the appropriate markings with the magnetic receiver and then the hard stops on the filter will work as they should. (That sentence might make more sense with a demonstration.) I would rather put on the filter without looking. You can sort of make it work without looking by spinning the filter around until it clicks into place. But you're better off looking at it. Removing the outer filter can be done without looking, though. You have to use a fingernail to remove the inner filter by its notched tab in a specific place, which usually requires looking at it. The whole process is much faster than screwing in filters, I just wish I never had to look at the lens while doing it.

But what I said before was true -- I love this system, I own 3 copies, I use it constantly.

Here's the page for the K2 system on Freewell's website: https://www.freewellgear.com/149-k2
 
Doug Jensen said:
Since my A1 doesn't have any built-in ND, the Freewell system might be something I could use. If I ordered the package you have linked to (and chose the right filter size) would that give me everything I need or are there other components use to use it they way you describe?
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As Abe advises, the new K2 should work really well on the A1. Like Abe, I have the previous set, and so far have found them to be well-made, reliable and all the while delivering good results. I opted for the 95 mm set. The 95 mm set with a bunch of step-up rings covers both the 28-135 and the 18-110 mm Sony pseudo "cine" zooms on the A7s, and basically any lens under 95 mm. An advantage I've discovered purely by chance since buying them is that having the larger 95 mm outer edge diameter than most lens front end sizes makes for quicker and more accurate finger location and adjustment. The new 82 mm set does over added advantages though. The Bloom lad did a pretty in-depth review of the K2's pluses and minuses.

Chris Young

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._vnd_lens.html


 
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Okay, I've ordered the K2 and .6 grad from B&H. It's not in stock but I'm not in a big hurry. Looking forward to using the system on my A1.
 
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