Fujinon 18-55 T2.9 & 50-135 T2.9

Eric Coughlin said:
So what advantages does a manual lens have in terms of focus? Hard stops with proper marks and a longer focus throw, neither of which have as many benefits for a solo operator as auto-focus does, and are more so beneficial to an AC pulling focus while setting marks.
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Hard stops make AF less needed. And I find it odd that you equate shorter focus travel with greater ease of manual focusing. I find that the extremely short focus travel of the Canon stills glass make manual focusing more difficult. You barely nudge the focus ring and the focus shifts by half a foot.


Of course I have missed focus over my many years of pulling focus. But AF isn't perfect either. Not today, not ever. There are going to be times where it malfunctions. Or times where manual focusing is needed and an operator who has heavily relied upon AF is going to struggle with manual focus more than an operator who rarely uses, or never uses, AF.

I'll conclude by saying that I don't think the lack of AF on these Fuji lenses is going to stop them from flying off the shelves. And apparently Fuji doesn't either.
 
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Eric Im obviously pulling your wang but.. (most of the matchstick story is true)

Ive shot a low budget but commercial feature (mainly on the completely awesome nikkor 35-70 -pulled my own focus) but my living is rough old corporate rubbage.

There really is a tiny bump between 'not moving' and moving that seems to be on the focus on wheel of all Caninkon AF lenses. That just feels wrong. Sony AF just floats like I drank 2litres of vodka.

However many I buy they just end up staying in the bag.

I even have brand new nikkor AF lenses sitting right here that I use for stills but they dont go on video jobs

200 degrees.. yep too much I would not want that, my much derided 28-85 nikkor has the correct buttery swing. It really does I cant describe it - a young chum was in today with his 'angie design' Tonka 28-70 and it was not the same.
 
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yeah yeah... i know i know...call me an old codger.... but I still prefer the ENG / sport days of left hand on focus barrel
 
Newsshooter is wrong. Did anyone look at the roadmap for Fuji X lenses? Seems to me that the first zoom should be available in a few weeks for Fuji cameras, as well as E mount. Here is the link again http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/, if you scroll down to the green part, you'll see that both MK zooms are supposed to be released for X mount this year, probably on the same time table as the E mount stuff (or very close to it). It wouldn't surprise me to see them pop up in MFT as well, even though we haven't seen a thing on this.
 
Greg_E said:
Newsshooter is wrong. Did anyone look at the roadmap for Fuji X lenses? Seems to me that the first zoom should be available in a few weeks for Fuji cameras, as well as E mount. Here is the link again http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/, if you scroll down to the green part, you'll see that both MK zooms are supposed to be released for X mount this year, probably on the same time table as the E mount stuff (or very close to it). It wouldn't surprise me to see them pop up in MFT as well, even though we haven't seen a thing on this.
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Other than corporate pride, not sure why they are making these in X Mount? Are there any professional video cameras that use Fuji X Mount? I can't imagine hanging one of these off of the front of my friends new Fujinon XT-2? Why have a big, long cinema lens for relatively tiny mirrorless bodies?
 
puredrifting said:
Other than corporate pride, not sure why they are making these in X Mount? Are there any professional video cameras that use Fuji X Mount? I can't imagine hanging one of these off of the front of my friends new Fujinon XT-2? Why have a big, long cinema lens for relatively tiny mirrorless bodies?
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It's a sign that there's a spectacular cine-oriented camera coming out of Fuji, so they're getting their lenses lined up, and then boom - take over the world :)!
 
OldCorpse said:
It's a sign that there's a spectacular cine-oriented camera coming out of Fuji, so they're getting their lenses lined up, and then boom - take over the world :)!
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You never know, they would have the corporate resources to do so if they wanted to. I would welcome a pro video camera from Fuji to compete with the lower end Sonys and Canons, I love their color science. Other than form factor and too much jello, the XT2 mops the floor with the ugly pictures the Sony mirrorless gang and the GH5 make. GH5 has better features but putting that aside and just looking at imagery, the Fuji is the best looking mirrorless camera.
 
Bern Caughey said:
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I don't think it fair or accurate to label it a design "flaw". Run & Gun hand focusing wasn't the target market. If Fuji was aiming for that market these would have been servo lenses. I don't see the MK's as trying to be budget Cabrio's.

Neither the focal range of the 18-45mm or the 50-135mm is good for ENG. If Fuji was aiming for the ENG market they would not have gone with those ranges. No reason to design them with an ENG focus throw when they are not ENG lenses.

Here is the language that Fuji uses in their marketing of the lenses:

"Fujifilm will introduce the “MK lens” series to the current lineup of the “HK / ZK / XK lenses” to meet the diverse needs at the movie production frontline."

"movie production frontline".

The Fuji news page continues with:

"Comfortable operability provided through dedicated movie lenses.

* The focus ring features a rotation of a full 200 degrees to facilitate precise focusing even when shooting with a shallow depth-of-field where a high degree of precision is required.

All the operation rings have a gear pitch of 0.8M, the same as all other FUJINON cine lenses, which allows the use of all standard third party accessories for movie production, e.g. Follow Focus that enable accurate and smooth focusing."

http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n170222_01.html

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It appears that Fuji intended these for the indie film / budget commercial / budget music video world. Not the doc shooter / tv reality / ENG world. These are, at least in Fuji's view and intent, budget cinema lenses. It the true sense of the word "cinema". Zoom lenses for use with a follow focus and AC pulling focus.

The lenses are not what you or I wanted for ENG / Run & Gun, but that doesn't mean the design is flawed for ENG / Run & Gun any more than a Corvette is a flawed design for off-roading.

You know I love you Bern. We're on the same page here. We're both still waiting for someone to design and produce our $8000 14-140mm f/2.0 servo zoom that doesn't telescope, doesn't breathe, doesn't noticeably shade down, has back focus and macro, is under 6 lbs in weight and is 12 inches or shorter, has manual iris,and has 180 degree shutter travel. Oh, and let's throw in IS while I am fantasizing. And a 2x doubler. Can't forget the 2x doubler.
 
I agree these lenses are geared toward cinema use. But back to my point, what cinema camera can they be used with?

It seems to me that they built a lens for cinema that isn't compatible with any camera that is popular for cinema. I just don't see the FS7 being used for cinema that often. And isn't the FS7 the best quality camera that has an e-mount?
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I agree these lenses are geared toward cinema use. But back to my point, what cinema camera can they be used with? ...
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On this occasion, one should look forward to 2017 NAB and beyond rather than the soon-to-be three year old FS-7.
 
Eric-

As to the target market, there is this from dpreview:

"the company wants to address the burgeoning market of independent filmmakers, small production houses, and other professionals using the Super 35 and APS-C formats. Sony has a huge presence in this market, with many professionals using the Sony FS7, FS5, and even a-series cameras. However, there are few dedicated cinema lenses for E-mount, with many shooters using EF-mount lenses via adapters.

This means there's a huge potential market of professional videographers who can be targeted. Also, since these lenses are built to mount so close to the sensor, they can't be adapted to mount on PL mount cameras, meaning that Fujifilm doesn't risk cannibalizing sales of their HK, ZK, and XK range of cine lenses."

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6535972319/first-look-fujinon-mk18-55mm-t2-9-cine-lens?slide=3


Maybe that last part addresses your befuddlement? Fuji gains a share of the e-mount market but by limiting the MK zooms to e-mount Fuji preserves their own PL mount / higher end sales. They are budget Fuji Premiere zooms for e-mount users who are never going to spend $99K on a zoom lens:

https://www.adorama.com/fuj14545mppl.html#source=productOptions

These Fuji MK's cut into Canon's CZ market. ( Canon CZ 15.5-47 T2.8 / Canon CZ 30-105mm T2.8 ) It becomes awfully difficult to justify $24k for a Canon 15.5-47mm when you can get both Fuji MK zooms for $16k less.

The market for these MK's isn't hypothetical. Think small production company that does commercials on an Fs7. Or indie filmmakers doing work on Fs7's. Some documentary-style shooters as well. And anyone who does sit-down interviews on an Fs7 ( network tv shows, anyone who does sit-downs for network sports, sit-down interviews for reality tv shows ) and wants a zoom lens for interviews other than the Canon 70-200mm but can't afford the $10k lenses. A manual iris zoom lens that facilitates step-less exposure riding, doesn't require an e-mount adapter, and has longer focus throw than the Canon 70-200mm.

Stepped iris has screwed me many times when doing an interview outdoors or using window light. I'd love to have the MK 55-135mm for an interview lens. That is a great range for sit-down interview setups. 55mm is wide enough for a two-subject interview and 135mm is long enough to achieve tight singles or a nice tight on a single-subject interview. Often times the Canon 70-200mm isn't wide enough and if you switch to the 24-70 it isn't long enough.

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Alister Chapman is an early fan after trying the 18-55mm MK out:

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2017/02/fujinon-mk18-55mm-t2-9-e-mount-zoom-lens/
 

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For those asking why designing a lens for short-flange-distance mounts is easier and cheaper than doing it for, say, EF mount, I suggest this super-awesome history of lens development published by Roger Cicala on the lensrentals blog a few years ago. It's amazingly well written, super entertaining, and well, at some point it explains how having to move the glass away from the film when SLRs were introduced was a big challenge... and how they approached it by adapting something that had been in use in 8mm motion picture cameras since the 1920s: the reverse telephoto designed, later called retrofocus by Angenieux.

Lens history:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/10/from-petzvals-sum-to-abbes-number/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/11/the-schott-heard-around-the-world/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/01/cooking-with-glass/

Telephoto and wide angle:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/02/who-invented-the-telephoto-lens/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/03/the-development-of-wide-angle-lenses/ (this is the one you're looking for)

Cameras and film:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/20...otography-before-the-invention-of-the-camera/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/05/the-showman-the-sheriff-and-the-first-cameras/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/05/1839-and-the-frenzy-that-followed/

Lens genealogy:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/08/lens-geneology-part-1/
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/09/lens-genealogy-part-2/ (this is the other one you're looking for)

From that last one:
"When SLR cameras were first introduced in the 1930s, there were no wide-angle lenses available because an SLR camera requires the back of the lens to be far enough forward from the imaging plane that the mirror can flip-up during exposure. The Exactas (the first SLR) and other early SLRs had to use lenses of 40mm or longer until the retrofocus design was adapted for photography."

If in a hurry, just read that last one. You'll get an idea about what a nightmare it must be to design wide angle lenses for long-focal-flange-distance mounts, and how relieving it must be to get rid of that flange constraint.

But really, if you have the time, read them all. Super entertaining, super interesting.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
Sure, future cameras, maybe. But still seems odd to release a lens marketed at hypothetical cameras in the future.
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Well, one has to assume that Fujinon knows what those hypothetical cameras might be (see, NoBro, here's mine Japanese cooperation note) since Fujinon and Sony are far from being strangers. But, even if that wasn't the case, the smart approach is to look at the high end pro/PL market as being inhabited by the established names like Cook, Zeiss and Fujinon itself while the cinema territory of E-mount is basically virgin. And Fujinon can have it all to itself. In other words, it can have a small portion of a huge market or a huge portion of a smaller market. And this smaller market is growing while the huge market's future* is in question.

*The "future" may be 8K but the bulk of productions will be quite content with 4K and the sweet spot in the 4K domain suitable for the independents and the low/mid budgets seems to be dropping to around the $10,000 mark with FS-7 II. Kinefinity and URSA/Mini 4.6 are also shipping and are a few grand lower but those two are not big enough to force other prices to drop.

And then there's the NAB'17.
 
e mount future

e mount future

DLD said:
Well, one has to assume that Fujinon knows what those hypothetical cameras might be (see, NoBro, here's mine Japanese cooperation note) since Fujinon and Sony are far from being strangers. But, even if that wasn't the case, the smart approach is to look at the high end pro/PL market as being inhabited by the established names like Cook, Zeiss and Fujinon itself while the cinema territory of E-mount is basically virgin. And Fujinon can have it all to itself. In other words, it can have a small portion of a huge market or a huge portion of a smaller market. And this smaller market is growing while the huge market's future* is in question.

*The "future" may be 8K but the bulk of productions will be quite content with 4K and the sweet spot in the 4K domain suitable for the independents and the low/mid budgets seems to be dropping to around the $10,000 mark with FS-7 II. Kinefinity and URSA/Mini 4.6 are also shipping and are a few grand lower but those two are not big enough to force other prices to drop.

And then there's the NAB'17.
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Honestly I don't think there is a conspiracy named "NAB 2017 e mount assault". The e mount is so popular because Sony makes cameras across the whole range, still and video from few hundred bucks to 10000 bucks. Fuji decided it was worth the try. Result- consumer wins !!. Now we can add Fuji to the compact lightweight zoom range. Just a few years ago all the lens manufacturers maintained it couldn't be done- machined metal construction, precision assembly, market size- we can't make a cinema zoom lens for less than $20k. Guess what- they can!!. IMO this is the answer to the Angenieux EZ line among other things. Of course they have to protect the sub 20k Cabrio line so they don't piss of the customers that bought them. Solution- make them in e mount so they can't be used on PL or DSLR mount cameras. Angenieux did a similar thing with the DP line few years ago when they dropped the price of Optimos by more than half but made the lens back extend so much it couldn't be used on film cameras. They pretended to protect their Optimo line that way. Big deal!! They knew the $45K short zooms were dead in water then. The person that bank rolled the short optimo line is my ex boss and we keep in touch. Boy did he have something to say about that!!! He still does to this day. I can't blame him but on the other hand- life must go on- we all march forward.
I personally can't wait to get my hands on one and see if I can convert it to PL mount. You can go any other mount from that. I already contacted my Fuji Japan contact and should have one of these on my bench pretty soon.
See you all at NAB2017!!!
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
Sure, future cameras, maybe. But still seems odd to release a lens marketed at hypothetical cameras in the future.
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it would seem odd to me to invest in a lens that is only suited to Sony's present (3 year old) offering. Sony is known to change horses without notice, so i can't see why anyone would want to purchase this lens before April.
 
optitek said:
Honestly I don't think there is a conspiracy named "NAB 2017 e mount assault"...
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The reason I brought it up was because the NAB'16 was allegedly going to announce a number of cameras but a bunch of them got delayed. Then the Kumamoto earthquake damaged Sony's sensor fab, causing delays for everyone who was buying from them. That likely resulted in a sort of a traffic jam where many companies either delayed or agreed to cancel models altogether. Now, there are rumors that NAB'17 will be the gathering where all these models that companies have been sitting on for a while will be introduced. Sony Cine Alta series are approaching on six years of age. The Alexa/Amira sensor is also ancient in digital dog years. BMD hasn't announced a new cine camera in a couple of years (OK, they've only began to ship URSA Mini 4.6 in numbers recently). Canon might introduce a "baby 300". Nikon just canceled their DL series outright with the various observers assuming that they will finally announce a legitimate videocentric product. JVC's LS300 is heavily discounted, so maybe there's something around the corner there as well.

So, that NAB'17 could be a quite a camera fest.
 
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