Fuel TV: too much detail, or not enough?

M

MichaelTiemann

Active member
Yesterday while eating lunch at a sports bar, I saw Fuel TV side-by-side with ESPN HD. What a difference in image quality!

The Fuel TV program was Camp Woodward, and I have to say that the video quality had a distinct YouTube quality to it. For the most part contrasty edges were highly aliases, highlights were often blown out. This was true both in the sports footage as well as the static interviews, except for one setup, where the image quality actually looked to be broadcast quality. (The fact that one and only one setup looked broadcast quality tells me that the TV monitor and signal were not to blame for everything else.)

Doing some google searches, it appears that HPX170 and HVX200 cameras are used by some of the shooters, and I found no other cameras described, either in the Panasonic line or others.

By contrast, the ESPN footage of a night baseball game was AMAZING. Absolute crispness of every edge, no aliasing, no CA, and when there was an occasional focus adjustment, you could almost seed the blades of grass as the focus racked around the player before settling in on the threads of their uniforms. I had a small quibble with the WB and gamma settings, but that could have been due to a misadjusted monitor.

Back to the aliasing and sharpness issues of FUEL TV...is this due to bad choices of DETAIL and V.DETAIL, bad choices of recording vs. broadcast format, unfortunate initial framing choices that did not leave enough pixels for final broadcast, or what?
 
I take it FuelTV is HD. It most likely has to do with how the show was delivered to them. Lots of factors from file type, data rate. Without knowing the whole workflow, it's really impossible to determine what the cause is. Plus a live switched baseball game is a whole 'nother ball game (ha!). Where every camera is shaded from the control room all matched and obviously using much higher end equipment in every facet. But there's no reason that a produced show, that isn't live, can't have the time and preparation to make a very crisp and clean product.
 
I recently shot for MLB covering the All Star game. They're pretty invested in Varicams. So, if you were comparing a Varicam to an HPX170, yeah, you're gonna see a big difference. Especially if the Varicams are shaded and color matched, etc.
 
I produce for Fuel TV. It's the cams we use vs the mega-dollar rigs used by ESPN. I will be willing to be some Fuel programs will look far superior to others.
 
Wikipedia says:

Fuel TV HD is a 720p high definition simulcast of Fuel TV. Currently, no programming is actually presented in full 16:9 HD; the 4:3 video is upconverted to 720p resolution, however.
Select programming is broadcast in HD via Fuel TV's official website, but is not yet available for television subscribers.[25]
 
AdamT said:
I produce for Fuel TV. It's the cams we use vs the mega-dollar rigs used by ESPN. I will be willing to be some Fuel programs will look far superior to others.
Click to expand...

Adam,

Thanks for the response! Can you describe the range of cameras you use, especially for the static interviews? What's the top end of the range (typically)? What guidelines do you give to your camera crews? How well do they follow them?

When you see heavy aliasing in static shots, what are the primary culprits? Sampling (4:2:0?) Encoding rates? Detail settings inside the cameras? Zealous cropping? Or is the due to the accumulation of all these factors--no one standing out?

Thanks again for being a part of this discussion!
 
Al MacLeod said:
Wikipedia says:

Fuel TV HD is a 720p high definition simulcast of Fuel TV. Currently, no programming is actually presented in full 16:9 HD; the 4:3 video is upconverted to 720p resolution, however.
Select programming is broadcast in HD via Fuel TV's official website, but is not yet available for television subscribers.[25]
Click to expand...

I'll bet that explains the aliasing. So the 4:3 video is coming in at 480i, up-rezzed to 720p?
 
MichaelTiemann said:
Adam,

Thanks for the response! Can you describe the range of cameras you use, especially for the static interviews? What's the top end of the range (typically)? What guidelines do you give to your camera crews? How well do they follow them?

When you see heavy aliasing in static shots, what are the primary culprits? Sampling (4:2:0?) Encoding rates? Detail settings inside the cameras? Zealous cropping? Or is the due to the accumulation of all these factors--no one standing out?

Thanks again for being a part of this discussion!
Click to expand...

We're in the process of producing 13 new shows right now for Fuel TV, and are delivering in 720p. They also require an SD letterbox version. This is the first year we've had to do it this way. Only SD for previous years.

Our cameramen use all Panny, HVX200a, HPX170, HMC150. Also some Canon HD....5D, 7D, and T2i.

Not sure about the aliasing, I know our shows don't have it on the masters. Maybe something from their broadcast?
 
Yo Fellow Fuellers. What's happenin'. Mikey I have noticed this same effect as well. Bro someone should really go down to Fox's Master control and see what they are doing down there. See if you can see it on a reference monitor that has the broadcast coming back into it, and then compare it to the same show coming directly from the tape or Hard Drive. I have a feeling that some interesting compression and auto level's kind of thing might be happenin'. It be good to at least see it at the horse's mouth so to speak, and see if you can get a real tech answer if you notice that there is a difference between the footage you shot and the footage over the air.

Also the guy that is doing the compression for the stuff on the web is doing a really good job for the Fuel site. I can tell that he is really close to keeping the levels that I remember color correcting at.

BTW your "Clone beach girl thing" was awesome

Dimitrios
 
Alliasing is mainly a camera issue, not something to do with the way it's broadcast, or am i wrong? Most alliasing i've experienced is only in the camera end of things. I've never had something turn out with alliasing after a final product or when it's put on air, (if it wasn't there to begin with).

Zach.
 
Hi Michael,

I am familiar with the production. In fact, I've been working for Camp Woodward and have been stationed next to the Fuel TV production space.

What you might be seeing on TV is 480 uprezzed to HD. This is because the production used miniDV for the first 2 seasons of the Camp Woodward show. It's now in it's 4th season I believe.

So, you may try checking out the newest season and checking out the difference!

Peace,
Andrew



MichaelTiemann said:
Yesterday while eating lunch at a sports bar, I saw Fuel TV side-by-side with ESPN HD. What a difference in image quality!

The Fuel TV program was Camp Woodward, and I have to say that the video quality had a distinct YouTube quality to it. For the most part contrasty edges were highly aliases, highlights were often blown out....

Doing some google searches, it appears that HPX170 and HVX200 cameras are used...
Click to expand...
 
bikefilms said:
Hi Michael,

I am familiar with the production. In fact, I've been working for Camp Woodward and have been stationed next to the Fuel TV production space.

What you might be seeing on TV is 480 uprezzed to HD. This is because the production used miniDV for the first 2 seasons of the Camp Woodward show. It's now in it's 4th season I believe.

So, you may try checking out the newest season and checking out the difference!

Peace,
Andrew
Click to expand...

Will do!
 
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