FS700 used prices. It's depressing.

G

Gene Sung

Veteran
Have you guys seen the used prices on EBay for FS700? It's pretty depressing.

I've seen one as low as $3000 with a Movcam baseplate and another at $4500 with a full Berkey rig, kit lens, Metabones, Kinotechnik EVH and 9 B&H month warranty. I'm probably getting the FS7 soon, but at those prices I'm not even sure it's worth selling.

Including the 4K update taxes and extended warranty, I spent about $8.5K only 2 1/2 years ago and now I'll be lucky to get $3K for it used. I guess $3K is $3K still and will help me buy the media and batteries and stuff, but yeah.... Crazy how fast these things depreciate :(
 
It's pretty disheartening, though not quite as bad in Australia, but still, I'd take a pretty big hit on my near mint 1 year old FS700R if I were to sell it tomorrow. All we can do is try and make as much money with our cameras as we can while we have them :).
 
Gene I have to agree with you.

Unfortunately thats the way it is with cameras now.

If your FS700 has made its money back then its not too bad I guess. These days I'd only consider buying a camera that could pay itself of in a year. With my FS7 I'm 1/4 of the way to ROI.

It's pretty much guranteed the FS7 will be in the same position as the FS700 when the next latest and greatest camera comes along.
 
The jobs pay for the cameras, not me.

Thats my philosophy.

I will upgrade to FS7 (or equivalent) when the weather sealing and internal 50mbps/4K will pay off compared to renting a similar camera. That can take a while, considering how good the FS7QO is now. Or it can go fast.

A camera like FS700 and FS7 is just about 25-30 days of renting before it breaks even (local prices where i live). Highly possible within a year. And owning yourself skips the hassle of picking up and delivering.
 
The real problem is not the loss when you sell your equipment. The real problem is the low price of the equipment because too many of the guys who now can afford a FS100 / 700 / C100 and soon a FS7 are asking for ridiculous rates. I am in the business for over 20yrs and it was way easier when the ticket to the professional market was more expensive. I saw a lot of cheapos coming and going within the last 5yrs but what's still present is the fee they brought into the market. If you get a reasonable fee a loss of 5k (210 per month) is a peace of cake. my 2cts
 
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I remember when RED dropped the Epic $30K over night. I know its a different scenario...but I really felt for the guys that purchased it a week before the price drop. Ouch.
 
Martin.G said:
The jobs pay for the cameras, not me.

Thats my philosophy.

I will upgrade to FS7 (or equivalent) when the weather sealing and internal 50mbps/4K will pay off compared to renting a similar camera. That can take a while, considering how good the FS7QO is now. Or it can go fast.

A camera like FS700 and FS7 is just about 25-30 days of renting before it breaks even (local prices where i live). Highly possible within a year. And owning yourself skips the hassle of picking up and delivering.
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Your last point is a major reason for me. It takes an hour or driving for me to pick up gear, and an hour returning it. My FS700 paid for itself quickly and over two years, it definitely pulled its weight. Owning also makes it super easy to work on passion projects, lower rates for non-profits, etc. Or just bring it on a personal trip. Clocked 670 hours on my FS700... Honestly, even getting $3000 out of it means I only paid $5000 to use it for two years. And for 670 hours... I'd say a camera is powered on ~7 hrs per shooting day... that's 95 days of usage on my FS700. 95 x $325/day rental in my area... aside from any week-long discounts you could get, that would be $31,107 in daily rental costs, excluding tax. So only being down $5000 is a pretty good deal in my book.
 
You're right Gene it's not worth it. Especially if you get paid, if I ever had to sell the fs700 I wouldn't sell it for a new camera. A lens maybe. Fs700/Q is still a great camera, of course I love the fs7 but Im waiting till NAB to see what my next camera will be. It's only a few months away, I'm sure rumors will flying around by February.
 
jshbckr said:
I'd say a camera is powered on ~7 hrs per shooting day... that's 95 days of usage on my FS700. 95 x $325/day rental in my area... aside from any week-long discounts you could get, that would be $31,107 in daily rental costs, excluding tax. So only being down $5000 is a pretty good deal in my book.
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Yup!

And when you start to think like that, and already own an FS700 - will the extra added features on FS7 really pay off? Do you need to rent FS7 on a regular basis as a replacement for your outdated FS700?

I have sadly had to say no on that question so far. I really really want the weather sealing for my personal projects, but my clients are not asking me to shoot in the snow often enough that it will pay off.
 
RE: FS700 Used Prices

RE: FS700 Used Prices

gene_can_sing said:
Have you guys seen the used prices on EBay for FS700? It's pretty depressing.

I've seen one as low as $3000 with a Movcam baseplate and another at $4500 with a full Berkey rig, kit lens, Metabones, Kinotechnik EVH and 9 B&H month warranty. I'm probably getting the FS7 soon, but at those prices I'm not even sure it's worth selling.

Including the 4K update taxes and extended warranty, I spent about $8.5K only 2 1/2 years ago and now I'll be lucky to get $3K for it used. I guess $3K is $3K still and will help me buy the media and batteries and stuff, but yeah.... Crazy how fast these things depreciate :(
Click to expand...

Don't be depressed. Instead, change your attitude about equipment acquisition.



In today's world, a camera is more like a computer with an optical input device attached instead of a keyboard or mouse.

As with all computers, a modern camera's value is roughly sustainable for about 18 months - correlated to Moore's Law, which states that the processing capability of a computer doubles every 18 months.


Now, Moore's Law may not apply exactly to Cameras, but the point is that Camera technology will continue to evolve at rates that you will not be able to keep upgrading and getting your investment out of the camera just by selling it.


Where you get your investment back is by working and making money with the device. Having a highly capable camera with 4K will not only provide value to your client, but will enable you to make money while continuing to increase your skills and production value.


Another post stated that the market is now flooded with people with these cameras and they are bringing down the market rates. Well, you can either look at it this way or realize that just because someone buys a FS700 or F7 or Red or C300 is doesn't automatically make their quality of work the same as yours.


Don't sell your potential clients on your "camera package". Sell them on your results, your experience in completing a complex project, you attention to detail, you willingness to learn and think outside the box. Sell the client on YOU! The camera is a tool, you are the Artist!!!

I for one am excited about the "democratization of the visual arts". Anyone with a desire to work hard and who develop their talents can get into the business and thrive.


As for my old equipment - I guess I'm a hoarder because I tend not to sell my old cameras - too many good times with them I guess!
 
I predicted this very thing when the FS7 came out. I told FS700 users they might consider selling their cameras before the prices plummeted. I stated so on this forum and was trounced by a few members as being wrong. And then Sony itself dropped the prices on the new FS700s, making it even more difficult for FS700 owners to sell their used cameras. The value of the FS700 decreased by several thousand dollars overnight.
I guess they don't remember history, when the F3, as good a camera as it is, dropped in value when the C300 and F5/55 came out. Or the 5D Mk. II and the 5D Mk. III. Or the G3 and the G4.
If a 4K Canon C300 replacement does come out soon, as rumored, be prepared for a lot of used C300s going up for sale. At very low prices. This seems to be the way our industry runs now.
 
I would say I made well over $200,000.00 shooting with the FS700. And I did sell it to make room for the new FS7. I also sold my C100 to get a A7s, that was my B-cam for the 700 and they are still a great combo.

I in no way see the fact I got back half of what I paid for these cams a loss. And the shooters that bought them got a great deal as well, these are still fantastic cams.

The best investment you can make as far as long term is lenses. Your shooting skills are the most important thing you own in this business.

In my testing so far the FS7 internals really look good, it gives the 700/O7Q a run, but the FS700 4K RAW->HD ProresHQ is still better. The 7 UHD internal is a big step up but the 700 O7Q UHD is possible even better. So the 700 O7Q is still a very competitive and valid system.

Remember telling the story well is still 90% of production, even GoPro footage can be fantastic, so lets not get too hung up about equipment. My clients hire me because of the work we do not the equipment we have, that is my decision, and an important part but not everything by a long shot. They hire me not my equipment but having current good equipment is a big part, so it is part of the formula, they trust me to have the right kit.

I think the way to look at it is the 700/O7Q is still a fantastic combo. And the new 7 is a great new step as well, it is all good, the ergonomics are way better and as I stated earlier the image is fantastic. These cams are all bargains. Back 20 years ago a BetaCam kit was $100K+ and that was pretty lousy SD compared to a cel phone today. So a depreciation of $4-5K in 2 years is not bad really.
 
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The way I look at it is the used price only matters if you are planning on selling your camera. I see a lot of people
watching the value of their house....is it going to go up in value or down? And if it goes down they are all worried. That
only matters if you are trying to sell your house to get a new one. If you are planning on living in your house......well
the fact that the value goes down doesn't really matter. In fact it may help as your property tax bill would be less.
The people I see worried about the perceived 'value' of their FS700 are those who want to sell it and move up to a FS7.
Then when the FS9 comes out, they will probably be worried about the value of their FS7. If you are worried about
your camera being worth less, it's probably better to never buy and only rent. Maybe Sony or Panasonic will come up with
a 'Creative Cloud Camera edition' where you pay a subscription fee every month and can then get their newest camera.
You just pay like $250 a month and every two years get to trade in your camera for the newest camera. Like leasing a car.
Otherwise, probably best to never buy at the start of a product cycle. For anyone buying an FS700 right now, they
will get a great deal. Probably if you wait 12-18 months (maybe not even that long, it's Sony after all) you will get a
great deal on a FS7.
 
Camera resale price is always a hard thing to accept when it feels like you just struggled with the decision of spending seven or more thousand dollars and are proud of that decison and camera. So I have to chime in here as a pre FS700 owner, yep an FS100 owner. I didn't move up because my camera was still working for my clients and making me money. It still is today and though I would like to make the 4K move and will eventually it is not an immediate need. I try to recoup my investment in the first year and for the past four cameras that has worked out. Perhaps I am lucky. My reason for posting is that I often feel that as much as I enjoy reading this group and others, I am amazed at how often people change cameras. I guess having come from "way back" when $50,000.+ was what it cost for a broadcast quality EFP camera and you worked it for as long as you could and still deliver good quality product for you clients. I realize that times have changed, some project and client expectations have risen but for the most part my clients want good quality and expect that when they hire me I will respect that and have the tools to make it happen. All of this to say I think that the FS700 is still a very viable camera, makes wonderful images. If you own one, and it is costing you money, sell it, cut your losses and rent the flavour of the month as it would seem and go to work. But renting only makes sense at certain budget levels, and with the proliferation of people out there with their own equipment "shooting" ....well you get my drift.
Lets face it we are in January and NAB is in March and there will certainly be new things to buy then, that will probably not deliver until the fall or later. So as much as I enjoy the art and technology of what we do, it is a business for me as it is for many. I am sure I will replace my trusty FS100 in the coming year but I am not sure I will sell it but rather delegate it to specific types of work.
 
This will happen with all cameras. It is the way of the industry. Back when I owned a film camera I used to figure on a 3-year cycle, meaning that it had to make more money for me in the course of three years then I spent to own it or it was not a worthwhile investment. After it paid itself off I went on a 12-month cycle, meaning that I had to expect it to earn more in 12 months then I would likely make if I sold it used, otherwise I should just get rid of the thing. Then plan was to essentially run it into oblivion, where I would use it until it was worthless in the marketplace or I would myself move on to other things and no longer have interest in owning it. As it turned out I ended up taking a position at a camera sales & rental facility that negated my need to own the gear anymore as I could get it cheaply from my job, so I sold it (and just in time as the film gear market collapsed).

I followed this basic rule for years with various pieces of gear, except that in the world of video equipment I needed to shorten the lifespan from three years to one. The camera had to make back it's investment in one year or it was not worth owning. Lenses, tripods, monitors, these are different items and have far longer depreciation cycles. I have a teleprompter that is still making me money after a decade. I owned one of the very first Porta-Jibs and that sucker made me solid coin for 15 years even though it paid for itself in only six weeks. My old Z1U cost me $5K and was in profit in one month, and then I made money on it for several years. By the time I was done with it the used value was so little I just didn't bother. Now it sits on a shelf behind me gathering dust.

These devices are business investments, and I look at them as means to an end. When I purchase a piece of gear I never think about its resale value. Selling it means I'm not making money with it, which means I shouldn't have bought it in the first place. When I make the decision to buy I need to feel confident that I will be able to be profitable on that purchase in a reasonable time. Once I'm in good profit then anything else is gravy. That gravy can come in the form of additional business or rentals over time, or in whatever money I can make from selling it used. But that's all extra as far as I'm concerned, because my conservative assumption is that once I've finished making money with the thing in the time I've allotted, it may very well be completely worthless.

I always depreciate the equipment down to zero on my taxes so it makes me money there as well.

This is a business and investing in gear should be treated as such.
 
There's no reason to sell your FS700 to get an FS7 if you still have paid for it and made money that justifies the upgrade.

Keep using the FS700, it's still a very popular camera and produces a great image. When you pay it off, make a considerable amount of profit, then think of upgrading. At that point low resale value will not much of a hit for you.

It's just how digital cameras work. The FS100 was sold for 7K at some point, now it's selling for 2.5k new. The Canon C300 was released at 20k, sold for 16k and now sells new for 11K. The C100 was 8K and now you'd be lucky to get 3K for it after the mk II is out. The 1DC was 13k and sells used for 5-6K. Some Red owner took a 30K price drop a few years back. All digital cakeras work that way now. So unless you can pay the camera fast and make money, never buy a new camera. Instead buy the used depreciated items like the above examples or spend money on lasting gear like lenses, support, etc.

If you just enjoy using new cameras and money is not an issue that's another matter. To be honest we all went through that phase at least once and bought new cameras just for personal enjoyment and loat money. Not a good idea!!
 
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