FS700 in 2018?

K

KrocanX

Well-known member
New year, new opportunities. It looks like I will have very busy year with new big projects. So, camera geek in my head is happy and I have started wasting my time looking on web for an upgrade. So far I was using FS700 paired with Inferno and a7s on gimbal. My biggest complain about kit are Sony colors and power hungry/heavy FS700+Inferno combo and finally missing option to have nice HD footage (Inferno does not have SS like 7Q+).

Obvious options are FS7, C200, EVA1, UMP, "maybe used RED?". But basically every one of those expensive babies has worse specs in terms of frame rates and my clients love slomo.

So, I am trying to stay logical and keep FS700 for another year and start using Inferno on every shot. As I mentioned I am little bit unhappy with weight and practicality of the kit since Inferno is really power hungry. Question is, is there any way how to power FS700 and Inferno from one battery? I shoot 90% handheld so V-mount is kind of weird for me too.

Any advice appreciated!

PS: I was shooting with this setup 2 days handheld and now I think it was bootcamp, not filming :)).
IMG_3417.jpg
 
I've been having the same thoughts. But in the end I can never really justify any other camera. If you want something "better" you'd really have to go with Red or Arri. It seems to me that Sony made a camera that's too good! :D Of course that all due to the Odyssey 7Q+ that made the FS700 a real pro camera and gave it a completely new life.

I've had the FS700 for almost six years now and it's still rocking, never had a fault. I've shot a feature, dozens of shorts, music videos, commercials and much more, It runs with two cheap Swit batteries that still last all day and everything fits in one Pelican case. Best gear purchase I've ever done. That and my Bolex 16mm are the only gear that have never given up on me.

It sure is heavy but then again, if you go with Red or Arri you'd be looking at bigger heavier batteries, much more expensive SSD's, probably no ND's and not as good slow mo... On top of that for me the new workflow demands would probably necessitate a new computer. I'm still happy editing with my 2012 iMac.

I'm going to work with this setup a year or two until I get something that adds manageable RAW recording, internal ND's, global shutter and a tad more latitude.
 
Here are some of my opinions...(I could breakdown any camera in the world, but these are just random thoughts based on your notes):

REDs are the best cinema cameras in the world for slow-motion in high-resolutions (besides dedicated slow-motion cameras for crazy HFRs). The DSMC2 bodies and modules play nicely together and you can build a configuration that's not too big, but it depends on how you shoot and with what...a big 70-200mm will make any setup bigger!

Blackmagic is next on the list for the best slow-motion (excluding ARRI because of no native 4K, which I'm assuming you'd like). Trust these people...they just know how to do it well. 4K/60p is beautiful in all of their 4K cameras (if you of course get a non-problematic one from quality control). The 4K URSA V2 shoots really nice 4K/120p. It's heavy (25lbs+ with accessories), but you definitely won't need a monitor hanging off the rig anymore. A power-hungry camera. Another note; BM has some of the best HD in the world too. Absolutely stunning, super-sampled ProRes 444XQ off their high-resolution sensors (i.e UMP). Another note; a new BM camera was announced today, which is pretty much a broadcast version of the S35 UMP. It has many of the same features but sports a smaller sensor and ships with a B4 mount (interchangeable). DR is 12 stops, which may be similar to the FS700.

If you're keeping the Atomos and maybe would like to just lose a little weight, the FS5 could be an option...but Sony colors again. I spent some time with the FS5/Atomos and really liked the CDNGs from it. I think it can even do 4K/120p and 2K/240p now! I would buy the FS5 over the FS7 if I was shooting CDNGs to the Inferno.

Canon has terrible HFRs (120p+). C200's 4K/60p RAW is nice and it's an amazing gimbal camera with the best AF system in the world.

EVA1 looks like it holds its own in the 4K/60p department, and I'm very interested to see how the RAW works out, which could end up being supported by your Atomos. Small camera.

---

Per usual nothing is ever perfect and the budget is the biggest question.

I'm not going to mention any names, but there are many, many cameras that are overpriced and overrated. With talent and a consideration for everything else that is a part of production and post-production, the FS700 combo you have now can run with the best of them.
 
I'm pretty much at the same point. The camera geek in me really wants to upgrade.
But the businessman in me is glad that I can stay with the FS700. Any other
option for me, really doesn't make sense. So I too am going to wait....maybe
NAB will see something new introduced. It kind of shows that the FS700 was
almost 'over engineered' to the point that it can stand alongside much newer
cameras. I think Sony almost made a mistake and put more potential then
they 'should have' in the FS700 (more than they should have from the point
of view of Sony who wants people to go upgrade to the newer cameras because
of how much better they are over the old ones.)
 
At the time, the FS700 was made as a "future-proof" camera, but no one really knew how that would pan out.

I'm guessing corporate/the engineers at Convergent-Design saw the potential in making the camera more powerful in order to sell more of their own products. (I don't know the exact history of events but Sony and Canon were both heading in the same direction with an HD camera/4K output.)

And I think if it wasn't for the 7Q then the only other option would have been some sort of Sony interface/recorder combo because Atomos probably wouldn't have bothered if CD didn't do anything. And I'm not sure how many people would have used Sony's option and the camera's 4K future could have had a much different outcome.

---

I also would like to add that I think it's a powerful camera today only with its 4K output because without it it's a potato by 2018 standards.
 
Last edited:
EVA1, Easyrig MiniMax.

Your biggest complaints were power and sony colors. And weight, with the Inferno. Few thoughts:

- EVA1 internal codec negates the need for Interno in many scenarios. When it does not, the EVA1 is so lightweight, adding an inferno will be ok (vs say an FS7, which gets hheeaavvy) for handheld.
- EVA1 has killer color science. So does the canon. It costs more, and weighs more.
- EVA1 biggest downside is the bummer LCD. But you're using Inferno. And the LCD is no worse than FS700 per my knowledge. Plus, you can do a Small HD focus if you needed.
- EasyRig - if you do a lot of handheld, check out the Minimax. I just got one and I'm in love, I'm in love, and I don't care who knows it
- Power - EVA1 has good power management. And they have new batteries just released which provided d-tap, too.
- Power - check out the gripper GR-75 batteries if you say v-mount is too much weight. How about a smaller battery with no need for any mounting plates? Pop on some 4" carbon fiber rods from smallrig and boom.

Oh. And the FS700 with external recorder is still good. You could probably swing another year if needed/wanted. Then again, resale value of FS700 might be less in a year. So... hmm.

Other thoughts:

- EVA1 doesn't match A7S color. GH5s?
- FS7 is heavy. FS5 + Atomos?
- Sony has a new FF cinema camera coming this year, supposedly, and an A7S III... maybe?!
- E-mount is cool.

Good luck sir.
 
Thanks for replies!

Yeah, filmguy, easyrig is one option too. Thanks for the tip.

I am not in hurry, so I will definetly go to the store or rent some cameras to try them. EVA1 looks very good, but I have a feeling that it is overpriced (it is priced pretty much the same as C200 where do I live). No 4k60p 10bit, 240 cropped and when quality compared to Sony slomos..

As filmguy mentioned, E mount is cool. After using metabones (speedboosted and nonspeedboosted) I find EF mount limiting. The most used lenses on my FS700 are Tamron 15-30 2.8 and Canon 24-105, both paired with speedbooster. They are basically no such lenses for EF S35.

The most logical way would be wait till NAB. I hope I can make it :))
 
Everything is over priced in our field ;)

NAB may be very interesting and bring not just a new camera option, but interesting support tools. Such as a recorder with no screen, negating a negative of the EVA1 perhaps. Then again, you’re not waiting till NAB, you’re waiting till ship date, and I didn’t get my aputure 300d until December 2017... so... NAB for me has been the time to pre plan end of year tax write offs, not plan my summer gear. Occasional exceptions.

EVA1 big benefit is weight. 240fps crop, who cares? You have wide zooms. It’s still some of the best. And it’s light. FS7 4K 60p internal is nice but then again it still weighs more than EVA1 + shogun... and then you’ll want a screen again anyway!

But if you like e mount there’s no reason to leave Sony. Maybe it’s not this year but I can’t imagine there won’t be a FS5 mk II or similar sometime soon to answer the EVA1. And Sony color science, when recording external, can be corrected well. Don’t use Sony personally but I can’t imagine there aren’t some decent preset LUTs to give a good baseline.

Ideal? No. But the name of the game is choosing your compromises.
 
The FS700 will do me just fine for this year, I think. Here's a frame grab from a shoot yesterday. Inside a cave, underneath a waterfall, on a rainy day, no lights or modifiers (wish I'd had a bit of bounce, but no budget for an assistant!).

Laura_01.jpg

Any time I think about upgrading I realise there is really not many other options out there that can do everything the FS700/RAW combo can, without paying a lot more money. EVA-1 looks like it will finally bring some competition to the FS7, and the URSA Mini Pro added the internal ND's which are a must-have for me, but also raises the price almost to EVA-1/C200/FS7 territory once you add a viewfinder and C-fast cards.

But that's about it for cameras that shoot 10-bit, 4K, & slow-mo, while also having ND's & XLR.

I do wonder when the next FS5 might appear - if it came around soon and included all the current firmware upgrades, plus 10-bit 4K (even just a 24/25), it would probably be enough to persuade me. But I'd keep the Inferno around for those jobs that still required 240p or 4K slow-mo. Other than that, I'll happily ride out 2018 on my FS700 + Inferno!
 
I'm having this exact debate now. I've realized that the reason I'm wanting to upgrade at all is for form factor reasons. I work almost exclusively with Angenieux Optimo Styles which makes for quite a long camera on the FS700. For sticks, dana dolly, shoulder, it's fine but I've long wanted to be able to use on my gimbal without renting a C500, etc. Also would be much easier to carry around as a tripod/shoulder package in general. I do think the EVA1 image is an improvement on the FS700/Odyssey 7Q 4K/2K ProRes (and it will get even better 1st half of this year) so I'm finally thinking I'll make the jump though I'll still be hanging onto the FS700, IMO it's resale value is nowhere close to it's value as a fully paid off B-cam.

That said, for the bread and butter jobs I do, no one really asks about the camera I'm going to use so it's tough to make an expensive change when it really won't make a difference to the client. I'm curious to see how the EVA1 is treated in the doc style market where the FS7, C300ii and Amira are the main players.
 
calebmg said:
....I'm having this exact debate now. I've realized that the reason I'm wanting to upgrade at all is for form factor reasons.....
Click to expand...

Yes, same here. Thats my biggest concern right now. I am sure that I could live with FS700+Inferno for some time but I often wish that it would be little bit lighter and mainly more...I don't know proper word for it..simply not that impractically looking haha.

deltoidjohn said:
...The FS700 will do me just fine for this year, I think. Here's a frame grab from a shoot yesterday. Inside a cave, underneath a waterfall, on a rainy day, no lights or modifiers (wish I'd had a bit of bounce, but no budget for an assistant!).....
Click to expand...

Looking good! May I ask you about your workflow? Since FS700 is old, no one really experiment with those anymore, so it is hard to find any useful info. I am using LUT for normalizing image which I have found on this forum (Betz) and then custom tweaking with Lumetri or Resolve. Color Correction Handbook by Alexis Van Hurkman is my bible but I still fight with skin tones.
 
I'm in the same boat as OP. I'm using my Fs700 + Odyssey combo, alongside an A7rII as a B-Cam. I rarely pull out the A7rII, unless it's going on a stabilizer. Realistically, the FS700 with an Odyssey/Inferno just simply out-performs almost any other camera in it's "range". There have been many times during shoots when we've had to switch from 4k/24 to 10808/240 to get a slow motion shot. The fact that I could simply switch a setting in the Odyssey/Camera and have this ability within minutes justified to me just how invaluable this camera combo is. Simply put, that just would not be possible with most any other camera in it's range.

Sure, I could upgrade to a much, much, much more expensive camera system, but it's so hard to justify. Oddly enough, to save on form factor, I've been switching to using Nikkor primes, rather than large canon glass. It's helped keep form factor down, and I don't see any real quality issues from the change (this could be debated).

I'm sticking with the FS700 throughout 2018 for sure. No reason at all to switch. Even then, I'm probably keeping it for it's S&Q capabilities.
 
I think for most of us, the form factor/ergonomics is the main downfall.
That being said, I'm in the 'e-mount camp' now. Too much invested in
lenses, lens adapters and so on to jump ship to some EF mount camera
like the Eva or Black Magic or Canon. Plus EF mount is so limiting, no
speed booster, and you lose the ability to use all the cool 'vintage' glass,
which has its own 'look'. So I'm waiting for the FS5mk II. With all the
new competition, they have to make it soon right? Here's hoping......
 
I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about everything being "over priced" in our industry. I guess it depends on how and when you came into the business. I don't want to sound like "that guy" but when I started a beta cam package was $45k minimum...to shoot SD on beta tape. Years later a digi beta cam was $65k...still shooting digital tape. My software of choice is Flame & Smoke...when introduced to the market back in the 90's, they had a 1 million and 500k price tag respectively for hardware/software. So the fact that you can buy a "serviceable" camera for sub 10k and I can run software like Smoke or Flame not only at work but at home on a mac for relatively cheap...prices by todays standards don't seem outrages to me, actually they seem quite reasonable...if not cheap, with some exceptions.

Having said that, I two am a FS700/7q owner but I did take the leap a little over a year ago and got an Fs7...and truth be told, depending on what I'm doing I still shoot often with the 700/7q combo. Yes it adds a lot of weight and overhead when I'm out in the field as compared to the much sleeker Fs7, but I actually may still prefer the image out of the combo. And trust me, I really like the Fs7 but I'm still probably 50/50...again depending on the project.

But, I think the key to the 700 is the external recorder (whatever it may be). I'm sure there are those that will disagree, but I found the internal AVCHD codec a pain in the ass to work with (actually most Sony file structures are) and the camera being 8 bit the AVCHD image has a bit to be desired as opposed to the image coming out of the 7q in my case...but again, just my opinion.

When i bought the Fs7 selling the 700 wasn't even a consideration. It made more sense to keep it for a b cam then take a beating on the resale market as I got in fairly early on that camera so I think I paid 9k and what do they sell for know...$2500 maybe a bit more?

If I shoot Slog 2 on both cameras (which I prefer even on the Fs7), apply the same LUT, I have ZERO issues matching cameras...so it's worked out really well. So for me, I still see a fairly long shelf life for the 700...it's not a camera I can use to sell jobs on, and I don't, but it certainly still has a place in my work flow.

latest rig.jpgrig.jpg
 
The fs5 has all the features of the 700 plus that great auto ND. You save a lot of weight, and gain features (including HLG and FullHD 240p at 10bit 422 internal and 4K30p). It is selling at a good price, and I got it when the RAW capability was free. I use it with the Inferno.
 
KrocanX said:
Looking good! May I ask you about your workflow?
Click to expand...

I edit in Premiere and use the Convergent Design Rec709 LUT's (regular, -1 stop, & -2 stops) to get it into the ballpark, and then a bit a contrast/saturation adjustment if needed. I've actually been finding that 90% of the time all I have to do is select the LUT with the right exposure compensation for the shot. Most of what I shoot is for TV so Rec709 look is what I want. I find this process & the results a whole lot easier that any of the in-camera profiles or cine-gammas.

thirdyearff said:
I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about everything being "over priced" in our industry. I guess it depends on how and when you came into the business. I don't want to sound like "that guy" but when I started a beta cam package was $45k minimum...to shoot SD on beta tape.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's purely that people think the prices are too high, rather I think there are very big market changes.

In the betacam days you could buy a Camera for $50K and easily get 200+ days a year work as a freelancer for $500/d (I'm talking AUD), and you'd never even have to ingest a tape - just hand it over at the end of the day! Plus you'd keep that camera for 10 years (heck, I know news shooters here who are still using their betacams).

These days, video content is everywhere, & the price-of-entry is lower, so there's a lot more competition, and the butter is spread a lot more thinly. Even as an accomplished shooter you an go out and buy a $50,000 Red package and you'll still lose jobs to guys with a GH5, because what the market demands is different. Plus that Red will be superseded in 12 months anyway. On top of that, wider economic forces mean it is harder and riskier to get a loan which means most people are limited to a camera they can buy outright.

I'd love to own an LT or an F55 (not a fan of Red personally), but I have to assess the market and figure out at what price point a camera can meet all the needs of my market/clients. Anything over that is wasted money. I know they say to 'dress for the job you want, not the job you have," but if that means paying 5x as much for a camera that will be outdated next year, count me out! There's always rentals, anyway.
 
I thought about getting an FS700 for a backup camera to a RED One MX primarily because it does RAW video inexpensively and also for the 240-fps RAW capability. However, the only thing that holds me back is the 2K resolution limit for the 240-fps and the added low light capabilities of newer cameras. Granted, the low light capabilities are still a bit better than my RED One MX but the possibility of a new Sony FS camera with 4K 240-fps or even a large advancement of the RX10 series’ high fps capabilities (even if it’s just a bump to 2K) for even more price savings is worth thinking about in 2018. While I don’t expect other upcoming conventional cameras I’m looking forward to, like the Sony A7S III, to have such high fps and resolution capabilities, there’s bound to be surprises by this time if previous NAB leap year trend cycles follow through. Honestly though, if I didn’t already have a RED One MX, the FS700 would have definitely been my alternative choice, even compared to the FS5.
 
We won't see 4K/240p from anyone for a long time besides maybe RED in one of their $50,000+ cameras in the future.

Right now they get close with the WEAPON with 200p at 3K 2.4:1 (3072 × 1296).

Next up on the list for everyone is internal 4K/120p recording. Some already do it, but very few.
 
I'm in love with the FS700. I had the FS100 before it. And even shooting straight to card, I still get what I think is great results. The form factor is interesting, but lends itself to handheld which OP has mentioned. As we all get older, handheld becomes less desirable! haha.

www.youtube.com/user/flingflingxo
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top