FS700 Highlight Aliasing and Color Fringing - SONY NEEDS TO FIX THIS!

[nyvz]

Judging by the response from Sony this isn't considered to be a bug, more a limitation of a camera in this price range, which to be fair, is at the low end of (professional) cameras.

Sony's response seems to be about moire and color fringing/aberration (CA), NOT about the issue seen in the FS700 which is black pixels along high contrast edges. Sounds like either they are not aware of the issue or the question was not posed precisely enough, but their response doesn't seem to apply to the issue discussed in this thread. This is not an issue I've ever seen in other cameras and looks like sharpening was applied to bayer data or something...

 

[pythonman]

Yes, this also happened to me on a recent shoot - here's a 200% crop of the affected area. Probably should have used extra lighting to decrease the contrast. But it was a run-and-gun shot. Shot with the Canon 24-105 with Speedbooster at F2.8 (F4 on the lens, but the speedbooster made it 2.8).

 

[starcentral]

It's always been there, but it's in the extreme cases usually. I would guess the design of the 700 sensor is a less refined version of the F5/F55. Perhaps some of these issues have been addressed in the 5/55 or perhaps the firmware side is more intelligent.

I've mentioned several times that there are aliasing issues in 1080 which is probably more connected to this, than actual aliasing. But then it's never 'ruined' a shot, it's an annoyance but only if you're pixel peeping. The only time i've had real issues is with a monitor replacement shot where the original (providing lighting) was on and high and the edges in front of it showed this problem.

Before going all crazy at Sony, i think we should wait a few weeks and test properly with the 4K output.

Or, as i mentioned above, next time someone has the problem take a 4K still with the 700 photo option as a double check...

cheers
Paul

I'm quite sure the FS700 and F5 share the same sensor from what I recall, yet no one with F5 has reported this kind of fringing on highlights except as I mentioned earlier on initial release the F5 did have chroma issues on hot spots that were quickly addressed.

Now it could be the sensor in the FS700 are slightly less spec that don't meet F5 standards. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to utilize lower grade materials in products over throwing chips with less tolerance in the garbage.

Having said all that, a major issue has just been uncovered on the F5/F55 which produces a grid like image over top of bright areas of the frame in particular when back lighting or getting lens flares. It has been well documented and is repeatable by several owners. A Sony product manager piped up on the boards and has been asking some questions and getting input.

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

Sony's response seems to be about moire and color fringing/aberration (CA), NOT about the issue seen in the FS700 which is black pixels along high contrast edges. Sounds like either they are not aware of the issue or the question was not posed precisely enough, but their response doesn't seem to apply to the issue discussed in this thread. This is not an issue I've ever seen in other cameras and looks like sharpening was applied to bayer data or something...

I would suggest that Tony Reale's petition and accompanying article gives Sony (if indeed it has been seen by them) a pretty good idea of the issue discussed in this thread.

 

[nyvz]

I would suggest that Tony Reale's petition and accompanying article gives Sony (if indeed it has been seen by them) a pretty good idea of the issue discussed in this thread.

I disagree, calling the issue "Highlight aliasing and color fringing" does not do the issue justice. The black pixels found at high contrast edges do exhibit a fair amount of aliased behavior, but the main issue is that they are BLACK PIXELS. And then color fringing is a side issue that detracts from the real issue, most likely it just looks like color fringing is part of the issue because it similarly occurs at high contrast edges but really it is just common lens CA that lies under the black pixels.

As we can see from their response, Sony can just focus on the "color fringing" and "aliasing" aspects and tell us we are crazy because all cameras have color fringing and aliasing to some degree, mostly from lens CA and occasionally suboptimal debayers or weak OLPFs and they would be right except they arent even addressing the actual issue because it is not precisely defined enough in our communication about it. I'm happy to sign the petition in solidarity, but unless Sony views the samples to understand the issue and is able to ignore the imprecise language of the petition, Sony is unlikely to really understand what it is about. I'd highly recommend fixing the description of the problem if we want to clarify the issue, as that would allow Sony to accurately address it.

 

[Gene Sung]

I think while certain lenses may contribute to the problem, I doubt it's the lens. I've noticed this issue since first getting the FS700 and it's aliasing / pixelation or whatever you want to call it gets way worse when shooting in 240fps, so it's definitely related to the camera.

As I've stated, I doubt Sony is going to do anything about it, especially with their horrible track record with the FS700 and it's 4K roll out. It's the forgotten camera and it's really affected my views negatively on purchasing from Sony cameras in the future.

Thank god for the 7Q. It seems like since it can tap the 4K RAW stream, CD can essentially do what they want with the info, can't they? It's just how far CD chooses to push it. Someone who more tech knowledge would know this, but that's my guess. Props to CD, otherwise my opinion of Sony would be completely in the toilet with the FS700.

 

[blackdogdylan]

Weeelll, that's not a very modern lens, coatings aren't modern and quite a bit of flare (i tried the lens way back).

A good test would be to do that scene again and then take a JPG still with the fs700 and see the difference. The still is Quad HD and can you see the same fringing issues? So same sensor, same set up but one is full sensor debayer and the other the 1080p scaled...

duly noted, Paul. definitely old and definitely subject to flare (one of the attributes I like about them.) that said, I still don't think that's exactly what we're seeing here.
but I liked your idea and just did a super quick test (too rough to post here) and sure enough, in video mode, I can recreate it in all of its jaggy, false color glory. throwing it into photo mode, I can still see it present in the viewfinder (and yes I can even blow it up with focus magnification and highlight how wrong it is.) but then when I take a look at the still, it is not present at all. not at all. no aliasing. no false color. no dancing black edge detail. clean.
it is definitely how the 4K read is being scaled. if I get some time this weekend, maybe I can throw together a proper demonstration. so while the Sony email is good to remind us all of the limitations of all camera systems (and seriously, all cameras have weak spots that we, as professionals, minimize in HOW we shoot) it seems this might be something they could address.
and in fairness, we DO have it good here. the camera is an excellent camera and while we'll likely never have a Magic Lantern hack for this, we do have the rare opportunity of getting access to the raw 4K stream in 12bits coming down a single BNC. not the F5, not the F55, not the Epic... none of those cameras have that. so what CD is doing is really unique and breathes new life into a camera that Sony has most likely considered "finished." but I think they might at least speak to this issue directly, for the community that might not be investing more in 3rd party gear.

 

[Gene Sung]

and in fairness, we DO have it good here. the camera is an excellent camera and while we'll likely never have a Magic Lantern hack for this, we do have the rare opportunity of getting access to the raw 4K stream in 12bits coming down a single BNC.

We do have a "Hack" for the FS700. It's called the CD 7Q

Maybe the 7Q is Sony's way of making amends with the FS700 customers for how badly they botched the 4K rollout and how badly this camera was ignored. I can't believe how many liberties CD is getting with the 7Q.

 

[paulcurtis]

in video mode, I can recreate it in all of its jaggy, false color glory. throwing it into photo mode, I can still see it present in the viewfinder (and yes I can even blow it up with focus magnification and highlight how wrong it is.) but then when I take a look at the still, it is not present at all. not at all. no aliasing. no false color. no dancing black edge detail. clean. it is definitely how the 4K read is being scaled.

That's promising to hear. I've looked at the photo output from the 700 a while back and i suspect most of us ignore it as it's pretty useless but i was curious and i found the results from it to be really excellent - hence the whole emphasis on 'give me the whole 4k and i'll sort it out afterwards'. I just want what the photo option is giving us 25 times a second and i'm happy. Well 120 times would be nice.

This is one of the reasons why the 2K RAW simply doesn't interest me at all - everything i've seen from it so far seems so poor by comparison to what this sensor is actually capable of when referencing these stills. I often think of the 700 being a wolf in sheeps clothing!

cheers
Paul

 

[nyvz]

I think while certain lenses may contribute to the problem, I doubt it's the lens. I've noticed this issue since first getting the FS700 and it's aliasing / pixelation or whatever you want to call it gets way worse when shooting in 240fps, so it's definitely related to the camera.

As I've stated, I doubt Sony is going to do anything about it, especially with their horrible track record with the FS700 and it's 4K roll out. It's the forgotten camera and it's really affected my views negatively on purchasing from Sony cameras in the future.

Thank god for the 7Q. It seems like since it can tap the 4K RAW stream, CD can essentially do what they want with the info, can't they? It's just how far CD chooses to push it. Someone who more tech knowledge would know this, but that's my guess. Props to CD, otherwise my opinion of Sony would be completely in the toilet with the FS700.

Yes there is aliasing at 120+FPS but that's because of binning/skipping/fast-debayer and totally expected, RED crops to get >96FPS, Canon C500 line skips to get >60FPS and those cameras cost 3x as much... that has nothing to do with the black pixel problem.

And what do you mean Sony's track record? They upgraded our camera to 4K as promised after only one year and it only takes 2days and costs $400, most companies don't offer upgrades. RED does, but they do it only every 3years and the waiting list is 6months long and costs more than the camera (scarlet )...

 

[Gene Sung]

And what do you mean Sony's track record? They upgraded our camera to 4K as promised after only one year and it only takes 2days and costs $400, most companies don't offer upgrades. RED does, but they do it only every 3years and the waiting list is 6months long and costs more than the camera (scarlet )...

1) They kept everyone in the dark for the whole year about the upgrade. There was almost NO information, just speculation.
2) They never said we would have to pay $400. But the S-Log 2 surprise did mitigate that a bit.
3) The F5 came out after the FS700 and the future firmware release dates and goals were clearly laid out in a very colorful pamphlet. The FS700, no info at all.
4) They released the frankensteined R5 module for the FS700, which is widely seen as an ergonomic disaster. A number of us thought that was going to be the only solution for a while.
5) When CD 7Q first announced the FS700 compatibility, it did not seem anywhere near as cool as it has become. Initially, it just seemed like it was just going to record 2K RAW and 4K Un-Compressed. Only later did CD mention all the 4:2:2 10 bit options tapped from the 4K RAW.

I know that myself and a number of others just didn't appreciate being kept in the dark for so long. At least to me, the 4K roll out was not good. It seems like in the end, CD 7Q will save the day; but it did not look like that for a while.

 

[jcs]

The bug looks like an overflow condition that is wrapping instead of saturating/clamping. 4095 is the max value for 12 bits. If we do 4095+1 we get 0, 4095+2 = 1, 4095+3 = 2, etc. That could explain the black/dark pixels when the bug manifests on highlight edges.

Adam Wilt discussed this bug in June 2012: http://provideocoalition.com/awilt/story/high_speed_and_low_light_with_the_nex-fs700/P2

Like the FS100, the FS700 gets a bit confused by overexposure. "Hot" speculars and lights in the picture can trigger a coarse sort of edge-enhancement look or a bit of adjacent chroma aliasing along the edge of the overexposed region.

In any case, clearly a bug; hopefully they'll acknowledge it and fix it or explain why it can't be fixed (hardware issue / patent (cost)). Being honest and open is very important when considering future purchases, especially at this price point and higher.

 

[Steve R]

Marino215 - are you going to reply to Douglas and set him straight? All it would take would be to point out that the exact same issue was a known bug on the other mentioned cameras, and was fixed by the manufacturer(s). Or perhaps just pointing him to this thread. If not - can you provide the email address he replied from, so others here can contact him and clear this up? He might be able to get some action from the right people at Sony if we can get him to understand.

 

[nyvz]

Marino215 - are you going to reply to Douglas and set him straight? All it would take would be to point out that the exact same issue was a known bug on the other mentioned cameras, and was fixed by the manufacturer(s)..

I am not aware of this issue occurring in any other cameras. Which cameras and which issue? I guess you aren't talking about the black pixels, which I see as the real problem. The aliased pattern of the black pixels seems to give the appearance of aliasing, but aliasing is not the primary issue since if you got rid of the black pixels, the aliasing would appear to go away. I still feel like we have a bunch of people talking about different issues, some of which are not fixable (general aliasing) and others that may not even exist (color fringing).

 

[Marino215]

Marino215 - are you going to reply to Douglas and set him straight? All it would take would be to point out that the exact same issue was a known bug on the other mentioned cameras, and was fixed by the manufacturer(s). Or perhaps just pointing him to this thread. If not - can you provide the email address he replied from, so others here can contact him and clear this up? He might be able to get some action from the right people at Sony if we can get him to understand.

Hi Steve I did reply to Doug (the Sony support specialist). I was polite of course but did tell him I would share his information so if you like to dig in further be my guest. His email is Douglas.Bierschenk@am.sony.com. He provided me what I felt was a detailed answer so I appreciate that and they do seem aware of the issue however what I got from the email is they weren't gonna do anything about it and just blamed it on the science along with our shooting styles. Maybe if more people post concerns about this issue maybe they will try to fix it. All the best to you, anything that could be done I'm sure would be more than welcomed.
thanks,
Anthony

 

[Essami]

They upgraded our camera to 4K as promised after only one year and it only takes 2days and costs $400, most companies don't offer upgrades.

I'm very glad about the price although I was told by Sony it's a temporary reduction. After october it's back to the old price of 500€.

I really wish the upgrade was 2 days though, my camera has been in UK for over a month now! I've lost several jobs because of the delays caused by people not emailing me the correct documents, two year old phone numbers and misunderstandings due to people just doing a quick reply with standard form replies and not paying attention. Not a happy camper at the moment.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Everything the Sony Support specialist was correct except that he was answering a different issue than the one that is being discussed here.

 

[Marino215]

Everything the Sony Support specialist was correct except that he was answering a different issue than the one that is being discussed here.

Hi Mitch,
If I may ask in your professional opinion can Sony address this issue in any way? Thanks

Anthony

 

[Mitch Gross]

I cannot speak for Sony. I can speak for Convergent Design.

Convergent Design is doing our own deBayer algorithm from the FS700 RAW output. We feel that it delivers an excellent image. We are aware of the issue outlined in this thread and have observed it on other camera systems. If we feel that it is not already sufficiently addressed in our current deBayer algorithm then we will actively look to modify it to better address this issue.

There are a few samples of FS700 RAW footage as captured on the Odyssey7Q. Has anyone seen this artifact in those videos?

 

[nyvz]

Everything the Sony Support specialist was correct except that he was answering a different issue than the one that is being discussed here.

+1

That's what I keep saying.