FS700 Highlight Aliasing and Color Fringing - SONY NEEDS TO FIX THIS!

NextWaveG

NextWaveG

Well-known member
I've been a FS700 owner since day one and while I love the camera, I've always been frustrated with highlight aliasing and color fringing. I know this was an issue on the Canon C300 which was later fixed with a firmware update.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, here is an example:

Highlight Fringing 1.jpg

And here's a closeup:

Highlight Fringing 2.JPG

It's very evident in motion. The aliasing jumps around and is very distracting.


The rolloff is fine but when there is a sharp edge from over exposed to standard exposure, the camera has issues with aliasing and color fringing. To me this is unacceptable in a camera priced the way the FS700 and C300 are. And if it's just a firmware issue, why hasn't it been fixed? I know the FS100 has the same issue. I've seen some improvement with S-Log but it's still a major problem. I'm not sure if having RAW on a 7Q will help but even if it does, I'd still like it to be fixed in camera.
 
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I'm wondering if shooting 4K would fix this since the image won't have to be down-scaled, which I believe often causes aliasing / moire.

As for a firmware fix, I wouldn't hold your breath. Sony seems to be really bad at firmware fixes. Even just basic stuff like making the ISO change easier is ignored, so fixing an image issue.... that will probably never happen with Sony who seems to be doing firmware updates constantly for the F5/F55 while FS700 is left in the cold.

One thing with RED and Black Magic, Love them or hate them, they're on the forums and seems like when an issue pops up they try to resolve it quickly (except shipping times for BMC, LOL). Thank God for the 7Q, at least they are giving the camera a bit of extra life.
 
Sony primesupport replied my inquiry about this with these words:

"Concerning the image you sent, I’m afraid that this is yet another characteristic of the type of sensor these cameras use, this can be ameliorated by using the ND filter. This only occurs when there are straight lines or objects in the pathway of strong light sources, if you film window blinds with light coming through this phenomenon will be visible there as well. "

And when I asked if there was plans to fix this:

"There are no firmware updates planned to change this at the moment.

Kind regards,

Marco C.
Engineer - PrimeSupport Operations"
 
I saw this exact same thing on the F3 and it was never fixed. Thread that documented it: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...elapse&p=1986281698&viewfull=1#post1986281698

Then when the F5/F55 was released it was also apparent on the first shipment of cameras and initial footage that hit the web. It was documented here, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...lease)&p=1986286368&viewfull=1#post1986286368 and later nofilmschool wrote about it and referenced my post from DVX http://nofilmschool.com/2013/03/sony-f5-f55-firmware-fix-shipping-bhphoto/

At least with the F5/F55 Sony immediately addressed it. Perhaps because I posted it on their virgin forum and it got their immediate attention - but with the FS700 I wonder if they will be quick to act.

On a side note, what I found worked on the F3 to reduce the ugly artifacting was to go into the custom picture profile and under MATRIX change it to the "FL MODE". This seemed to help a bit.
 
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starcentral said:
At least with the F5/F55 Sony immediately addressed it. Perhaps because I posted it on their virgin forum and it got their immediate attention - but with the FS700 I wonder if they will be quick to act.
Click to expand...

Mark my words, it won't be fixed. The FS700 is a done deal in Sony's eye. They're not going to do anything more for it. I have to say, Sony is a very frustrating company in that simple customer requests (like the ISO change) and things that can obviously be fixed like the edge aliasing they just ignore it. If you're an F5/55 owner, it's a whole different game as Sony loves you.
 
Essami said:
If this is purely a sensor issue like Sony seem to state I wonder if 7Q will suffer from this same fault?
Click to expand...
Of course it will. The recorder will record what the sensor gives it.

This type of issue is not all that uncommon with CMOS sensors. Red had it early on, and BlackMagic had it, and as Dennis said, the F5 and F55 had it. All three companies eventually fixed it. However, I would not expect any fix forthcoming for the FS700 because, as Essami's post says, "there is no fix planned at this moment." Meaning, maybe someday they might fix it, but they have no current plans, so if you're an FS700 user, the only reasonable or prudent course of action is to use it as-is and don't count on some fix coming in the future.
 
BTW, what is the e-mail for Sony Prime Support? They don't make it well know so I've kind of assumed they don't really want to hear from you.
 
I wonder if the problem isn't a debayer algorithm one.
I say this because I've owned both the C300 and Fs700, and I saw this exact same problem on both, but recently shot F65 footage with same backlit scenario (of course there was no aliasing/fringe issues), but while playing with Sony Raw viewer I tried "2k speed" setting for possible proxies. Bam, highlight aliasing and fringing just like the FS700/C300. I mean EXACT same issue I had seen many times with both.

But going back to "4K Quality" algorithm, the issue disappeared completely.

I'm no techie, but it seems like its a debayer issue to me. I could be wrong, but its hard to ignore what I saw.
 
I'm definitely going to write Sony later today and link them to this thread as well as Tony's article

http://www.nextwavedv.com/sony-fs700-highlight-aliasing-and-color-fringing-sony-needs-to-fix-this/

I've noticed this issue for a long time and have just lived with it'; but I had no idea it was so easily fixed on all the other cameras (C300, RED, F5 / F55). So it's not because Sony cannot fix this problem, but because they choose not to fix this problem. Hopefully they'll choose to fix it as the FS700 has got some new stock with the 7Q. My director friend just bought one because of the upcoming 7Q.
 
yeah. it's definitely the ugliest of the FS700's characteristics. I had hoped that with the SLog2 upgrade, it might be addressed, but as Justin mentioned, it is obviously a bi-product of the debayer from 4K down to 1080p. check out this grab from a test I ran after I got the upgrade (trying to see the upper limits of contrast ratio the camera could handle.)

072913_slogV1_.jpg

nasty.

I hope producers never see this thread.
 
I agree with Barry too. I really can't see Sony addressing it on the FS700.

With the F5/F55 problem I posted it on their forum within the first couple weeks the camera started shipping, and as with any new product hitting the market they acted very fast and released a sub-version firmware fix. It had to be a bit on the embarrassing side of things.

With the FS700 its kind of water under the bridge. The camera is not "new" anymore. I know no one wants to here this but it's just my impression.
 
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agreed. the FS700 is dead to Sony. I wouldn't be surprised if we never see another firmware above 3.0.1. I suspect our only hope is that the 7Q is able to do a higher quality debayer/scale to 1080p from 4K. fingers crossed CD can "fix it" for Sony.
 
Sony also stopped working towards a firmware for the F3 (that they actually talked about) as soon as the F5/F55 were just about hitting the market.

Not trying to be negative, just saying Sony's efforts are elsewhere right now.
 
If this is a debayer algorithm issue, and if the 7Q is really pulling truly raw data from FS700, then the 7Q is a potential solution to this problem: You can choose your own debayer method.
 
The C300 pulls red and blue directly from the sensor and green is averaged from two grids- no DeBayering. Any artifacts are not from DeBayering.

Ok FS700 owners- if Sony won't fix it, sell the camera and get an F55! ;)
Actually, for the money if 4k isn't needed purchasing the ARRI Amira would send a more effective message (and will produce a nicer image with less effort).
 
Have to admit the Amira looks a perfect camera in many respects (notwithstanding lack of 4K). Rugged construction, brilliant ergonomics and viewfinder, ProRes recording in camera, 200fps, 2K, choice of lens mounts including Canon EF, etc etc. Although I imagine it will be more in the price bracket of the F5/F55 rather than the FS700 range. Caught my attention though.
 
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