FS700 discontinued? ANOTHER new camera from Sony?

[poormanwally]

When I search on Adorama for "fs700" it comes up as "discontinued." Strangely, when I search "fs700r" it gives me hits for the camera body, and for the Odyssey 7Q package, but both are "back ordered." The FS700 is on back order on BH and Abelcine as well, although the 7Q package is available. If you're looking for a new FS700, I wonder if now might be the last chance.

I know the FS5 and FS7 fill the gap here, but now Sony Alpha Rumors says a trusted retailer said they got notice from Sony headquarters that there's a new "professional" grade camera to be released soon. The post on SAR hints that it's along the lines of the Alpha series, not a camcorder form. What is Sony doing? It's like they're trying to oust the competition by simply out-producing them. There are so many bugs with what they already have out, and if you read various forums, so many of these current cameras are in need of some real attention. Sony's poor development teams have to be exhausted, and meanwhile users are frustrated too because of the lack of support.

Just venting a bit, but I'm seeing PMW-F5s hit the used market for $14k complete with rig and batteries... and I have a hard time believing they're going to get even that, since the package deals for the F5/A7Sii with accessories is $16/17k, INCLUDING the internal 4k. Sony's really shooting professionals in the foot, here. On my side, of course I'd love to pick up a used F5 deal on the cheap, but for the first time ever, I'm actually hesitant to buy into Sony.

And whatever they did to poor Matt Allard, he's been posting his Sony gear for sale on multiple forums...

I'm always excited to see new cameras come out, but by "new" cameras I mean cameras with new functions and abilities. The whole A7 cycle is pretty underwhelming, IMO, excepting the IBIS. The IBIS is a great feature, and the BSI sensor too, but the rest... the slog3... for 8 bit... what's the point, with the banding and all? And the rolling shutter lag on the A7Sii is the same, awful. And the 42 mpix on the A7Rii is nice, but it's just an extension of the resolution game, is it really something new? And the 42 mpix really is meant for photos, it's neither here nor there for video, IMO, because it introduces the heat and the rolling lag. Seriously, if Sony wanted their working professionals to have the best gear, instead of releasing these Markii versions, they'd wait till they had serious improvements, things they could put altogether. It's nice what they've done with some of the upgrades/innovations, but not nice enough for a new model, with an inflated price to boot; they could have held off until they added a total package that merited a new model and price hike, like 10 bit, 2 card slots, better battery, IBIS, a small internal fan or external heat sink with a protective mesh, faster processing for the RS. These little half-steps produce frankenstein cameras that have some really nice features, but just can't take advantage of them, a la the 8 bit 420. I thought about the A7Rii and Sii, but if I need it, if at all, I'll buy earlier models, or used, or I'll wait till they put together the whole package so I don't have to juggle 3 or 4 Sony Alpha cameras with mostly similar features with just a few distinctions.

And I still don't understand what the purpose of the FS5 is, with the long gop... this is a professional camera? Doesn't the better feature set of the FS7 render the FS5 moot, for a little extra cost? Why spend almost the price of the FS7 and be perpetually handicapped by the long gop, etc?

Say what you want about Sony's cameras technically... but customer support is poor. They just look at us like cattle, hyping these half-step products over and over again. They really are a giant, it's like the marketing, support, and engineering teams live on opposite sides of the planet. You would think they would have accepted the perennial criticism of their menu system by now... but nope...

Seeing as Sony's going to be here as long as Arri, and probably longer than Red, it would be great if they got on the same page as the user base. Please, if by some small chance anyone from Sony is reading these forums, you make cameras that are great technically... now how about driving your product development from user perspective instead of just engineering perspective. If Sony does that, I think they're uniquely capable of making THE best camera.

 

[DLD]

In retail, there's a possibility that some outlets will cross-ship their remaining inventory from one to another. It's done for the various reasons, such as the desire to clear shelves for one and the excess of accessories - say that twice - for another. Chances are, however, that this is indeed the end of the cycle for FS-700, even if one can pick up a dust gathering piece here and there.

A manufacturer's lineup will, obviously, always have entry and step-up pieces. For pro 4K use, FS7 + XDCA + Q7+ Raw package seems like the best buy for ~ $13,000. FS-700 sales are probably destroyed by the A7 series (RII and SII) anyway.

As to "Sony high end A-body" model, the A99 MKII has been bandied about for two years now. It certainly could have been released right around the time GH4 came out but the Sony management chose a different strategy (such as using the existing assembly lines to pump out their A7 series, which is a huge success). What may be different now is that Canon 1 DX MKII and Nikon D5 are rumored to be coming out within half a year or so. Much like Leica SL, each should have 4K internal recording and Sony may be thinking that it might as well toss its hat into the same ring with A99 MKII.

 

[deltoidjohn]

Well, the FS700 has been discontinued for a while now - replaced by the FS700R. So that might explain the mixed search results you are getting. I've seen no evidence that the FS700R has been discontinued just yet.

As for any new rumoured cameras, it's not worth putting any weight into something which is just blind conjecture. Until a particular camera is announced there is no way of knowing what Sony are planning, so it's totally pointless to question or criticise them.

If people are making a loss by selling their F5's, that is their own fault/bad luck for making purchases which their business model was unable to sustain. Any working professional will be making enough in 1-2 jobs to cover depreciation (which is tax-deductible anyway in most countries), and also wouldn't buy a camera expecting to sell it for the same price - they purchase it, make money off it until it is no longer an effective tool, then sell it for whatever they can get - using any applicable tax deductions along the way. I hardly see how Sony making cameras available to professionals at ever-decreasing prices is "shooting them in the foot".

The "A7 cycle" as you refer to it is a product of the consumer division which has a completely different marketing mentality than the professional division. Look at the Panasonic GHx's or Canon Rebel series to see the kind of marketing model they are buying in to. The Professional division, on the other hand, is not prone to releasing "mark II" versions - every professional camera in their lower-end cinema line, starting with the F3 onwards, has been a totally new camera which has lived a healthy market life before being discontinued. Sure, some of the consumer division tools can be appropriated by professionals, but its unrealistic to demand additional pro-level video features in these consumer photo cameras at every new release.

I understand the FS5 may not meet your particular needs, but when it's assessed against the market as a whole, it becomes more apparent why it lacks things like 4K60p & 10 bit. How many others35 video cameras (with audio, long record times, NDs, etc) are there in the price range that even shoot 4K at all? How many S35 cameras are there in the price range that shoot 10-bit in HD like the FS5 does? It really is a one horse race - and a race than many low-end shooters are glad Sony have entered. The fact that the FS7 is only a few thousand dollars more expensive says less about the FS5 than it does about the FS7, and just how much it blows away everything else in the segment at a ridiculously low price given the feature set.

As for Sony's customer support, I can't comment as I've never had to use them, because none of my Sony professional products have ever failed me.

The great thing though is that you can disagree with everything I've said and buy a camera from one of the many other camera manufacturers, rather than just pointlessly bashing Sony on an internet forum. That is, if you can find anything that competes with Sony's current offerings in the same price ranges.

 

[poormanwally]

DLD, I agree, the FS7 is the best bang for the buck. I think Sony hit a sweet spot with the FS7. And sure, I bet lots of buyers are going the A7x route, but there's so many work arounds with the A7x including the form factor and lack of a fan. Totaling all expenses and considering ROI, I think the FS7 is the better value, unless the buyer is also a photographer, then I don't know. But who knows how long that valuation will last, with that rumor of yet another new camera...

I really don't get what's happening with A-mount. What do you make of Sony Australia giving up on A-mount cameras and lenses? What does that mean when a manufacturer is still releasing new A-mount gear, but their regional won't sell it?

 

[poormanwally]

Deltoidjohn, what I wrote is “pointless bashing”? I guess my opinion is worthless, and you get to decide what everyone else in this world thinks. Are you serious? You have to be very disinterested in Sony’s cameras to put a cherry and sprinkles on top of everything the way you did.

If people are making a loss by selling their F5's, that is their own fault/bad luck...

Are you aware how facile you sound, putting that onus on the buyer? That’s the most laughable thing you wrote. It has nothing to do with “bad luck.” There’s literally nothing random about it, it’s Sony’s agenda, and just Sony’s. Don’t you think the depreciation of the F5 has ANYTHING to do with the manufacturer undercutting the F5, first by crippling it, and then with the FS7? You had all these smaller cameras shooting 4k, and the F5 was “designed” only to shoot 2k according to Sony at the time, until Paul Ream cleverly found the “hack.” And the FS7 was released only 2 years after the F5 was announced, and there’s not a whole lot that differentiates the 2; albeit the differences that do exist favor the F5, amounting to nicer user interface, not superior capability ... but the FS7 is HALF the price, and if you want raw out of the F5 you have to buy the premium R5 system, with memory cards at $1800USD a pop.


What would Arri owner-ops say if Arri released cameras so similar in features set and on that close of a schedule, with the lower model being LESS than half the price?


And you want to herald the idea that the depreciation is tax deductible, so that makes up for it? Is that how you buy equipment, hoping for the maximum deductible? How about if Sony just makes a camera that they support for more than 2 years, so that it doesn’t depreciate as much in the first place? Yeah, all tech depreciates... but they gave the F5 barely 2 years to hold its own... with the extra charge for 4k, and the ridiculous charge for the F55 upgrade for a system at the end of its product life.


It’s exactly like I said, Sony shot F5 owners in the foot, and it has NOTHING to do with F5 owners’ “bad luck.”


And if the A7 models are consumer products, why did they give it flavors of slog? Because consumers are grading in post? You believe consumers are paying for $2500USD lenses for their $3200 cameras? Sony’s obviously trying to win pros over to their mirrorless systems.

The Professional division, on the other hand, is not prone to releasing "mark II" versions - every professional camera in their lower-end cinema line, starting with the F3 onwards, has been a totally new camera which has lived a healthy market life before being discontinued.

Right. Like the F5 comes off of a separate line than the F55. “Totally new” indeed. And tell the F5 sellers they’re getting a “healthy market life” at probably less than half their investment only 2 years later.


I concede that the FS5 being moot is just my opinion. But it’s hard for me to imagine someone’s business needing a camera, and that they would skip over the FS7 for $2400 more, considering the MASSIVE gap in capability between the FS5 and FS7. For a hobbyist, I don’t know; but for a business expense, that $2400 gives you an actual pro camera (with a consumer mount).


Call it bashing if you want, put sprinkles on everything if you want. But there’s nothing wrong with criticizing Sony where they fall flat and deserve it. The sad part is that Sony has a world of resources and capability to do better, for each and every camera, and yet they CHOOSE to make half measures because it's purely hocking merchandise for them. Why don't they offer a board for friendly codecs on the F65? Because they moved development focus to the F55/5 since they sold more. On and on... they really COULD make each camera something amazing, something that every user is totally satisfied with... but... they don't.

 

[deltoidjohn]

Deltoidjohn, what I wrote is “pointless bashing”? I guess my opinion is worthless, and you get to decide what everyone else in this world thinks. Are you serious? You have to be very disinterested in Sony’s cameras to put a cherry and sprinkles on top of everything the way you did.

Are you aware how facile you sound,

Of course everyone is welcome to their own opinion (as I said in my final paragraph), but everyone also should be aware that others might have differing opinions and that doesn't mean they need to take such a defensive tone.

That’s the most laughable thing you wrote. It has nothing to do with “bad luck.” There’s literally nothing random about it, it’s Sony’s agenda, and just Sony’s.

You've misinterpreted what I meant by bad luck, as well as totally ignored my point here that professionals buy their cameras to make money with. They make investment decisions based on their business needs at the time. What Sony does or does not do afterwards should not matter if they have already factored the costs into their business plan. From a business perspective, people should ask themselves "can I pay this camera off in x months considering my current rates and predicted work prospects?" If the answer is yes, then the resale value in 2 years does not matter. And by bad luck, I was not referring to Sony's pricing decisions, but rather to the fact that sometimes businesses fail for whatever reason - which might cause a camera owner to sell earlier than their business plan had anticipated.

What would Arri owner-ops say if Arri released cameras so similar in features set and on that close of a schedule, with the lower model being LESS than half the price?

I don't know about Arri, but I wonder what RED owners would think if the manufacturer halved the cost of their flagship camera overnight. Oh, wait...

We've seen it happen, and professionals kept using their camera, and kept making money with it, because that was a part of their business plan. And many more people have bought into the RED system since. The only people who seriously revolted were those that are more obsessed with gear than running a business, and who compulsively upgrade (or cross-grade) every time a new camera comes out, naively expecting to get back almost everything they paid for their gear every time because they barely used it in the few months they owned it.

And you want to herald the idea that the depreciation is tax deductible, so that makes up for it? Is that how you buy equipment, hoping for the maximum deductible?

Yes. I run a business, so utilising all applicable tax breaks is an important consideration in my purchase decisions.

And if the A7 models are consumer products, why did they give it flavors of slog?

Possibly because it was easy & cheap to implement, while increasing the potential customer base.

I concede that the FS5 being moot is just my opinion. But it’s hard for me to imagine someone’s business needing a camera, and that they would skip over the FS7 for $2400 more, considering the MASSIVE gap in capability between the FS5 and FS7.

I was going to give this a reasoned response about what type of shooters might choose this camera, but then I decided it would be far more fun to repeat your own words back at you:

I guess their opinions are worthless, and you get to decide what everyone else in this world thinks. :laugh:

 

[Mitch Gross]

Well, the FS700 has been discontinued for a while now - replaced by the FS700R. So that might explain the mixed search results you are getting. I've seen no evidence that the FS700R has been discontinued just yet.

Gents, do not overlook this statement.

 

[firehawk]

It appears the fs700r may be available for sell for a while longer. I've been watching it since the last price drop and checking several stores. BH sold out first. Later adorama and a couple others. The status shows "back ordered". Did have an expected time of nov 16, but they since removed that. Sony will likely sell it as long as it continues to be profitable enough and doesn't hurt fs5 and fs7 sales.
I also have not seen any sweeping clearance of fs700 accessories so I expect vendors are enjoying an increase of fs700 users out there and thus increase of accessories bought. One last hurrah before it goes away and the market for accessories dwindles.

 

[firehawk]

B&H now says
In Stock: Shipping Only.

Not sure exactly what that means

 

[DLD]

... I really don't get what's happening with A-mount. What do you make of Sony Australia giving up on A-mount cameras and lenses? What does that mean when a manufacturer is still releasing new A-mount gear, but their regional won't sell it?

IMO, Sony views Australia as part of the Asian market and Asia has gone into the smaller body mirrorless format. North America is where DSLR's still hold the premium spots and, for all practical intents and purposes, the translucent mirror is a DSLR. Furthermore, Sony just announced A68,so I think there's life in the Alpha series yet. And, besides, there's not much reasons for Sony to quit it, aside of saving shelf space in the traditional brick&mortar retail outlets. They have a full compliment of lens for Alpha. They have the adapters, including the third party ones. They may as well fill the niche.

It appears the fs700r may be available for sell for a while longer. I've been watching it since the last price drop and checking several stores. BH sold out first. Later adorama and a couple others. The status shows "back ordered". Did have an expected time of nov 16, but they since removed that. Sony will likely sell it as long as it continues to be profitable enough and doesn't hurt fs5 and fs7 sales.

I also have not seen any sweeping clearance of fs700 accessories so I expect vendors are enjoying an increase of fs700 users out there and thus increase of accessories bought. One last hurrah before it goes away and the market for accessories dwindles.

I wrote a while ago that I expected FS-700 to be discontinued when the FS5 Raw package became available. I think that to be a reasonable estimate. Maybe the NAB announcement and the summer'16 arrival/departure.

 

[poormanwally]

DLD, I regularly read your posts, and you and a dozen other regulars really have such a fantastic grasp of the tech and business, so thanks for contributing here. Now I'm reading through the thread about the FS7 raw recording. Way over my head, but it's great to pick up the little I can digest.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the Alpha series still having a future... tell me if what I'm saying is full of holes, but I think at some point a couple years back Sony realized that there's more competition for their pro series, and less for their mirrorless, and the consumer market has to be bigger than the pro market by multiples, no? So they put "pro features" on consumer cameras and developed this hybrid prosumer A7x series, which really does have a broad userbase for photo plus video. So they shift development to mirrorless, including the pure consumer cams, and now they can hock all these new accessories for the combined, larger userbase, like emount lenses they R&D once but sell for both full+crop and "pro"+consumer. Since the pro market has always been dominated by Sony's cousins, I think it just makes more sense that Sony picked themselves up and moved to a different pond where they can fish with less resistance, or throw pebbles at Canon from a distance. Of course it's all just my speculation, but maybe the A68 and supposed A99Mii were what was left in their pipeline when they made the cut, and they figured it was just a sunken cost they had to see through? I'm reasoning that if A-mount was selling poorly enough that Australia is dropping it locally, then it's only going to get worse if the A7x series competes with what's left of A-mount globally. Isn't this a case of diminishing returns?

On a side note about my criticism of Sony... it boils down to a company's pride and purpose in their products. Look at Arri, you can tell these people LOVE what they do, and they're excited for what they can achieve. They genuinely want to make THE best camera. It's THAT desire which drives Arri, not just profitability, but having that love in their soul for what they do... like a bunch of kids getting together to make something amazing just for the sake of the accomplishment. I definitely don't get that feeling from Sony. They focus on the end of the year to see whether it's black or red on the page, or they look in their parts bin to see what market-need their engineers can fulfill, and that drives their decision making.

I can sum it up as this: Sony makes cameras... Arri makes instruments. And maybe that explains why users' complaints fall on deaf ears at Sony... Sony just doesn't care about the users' perspective as much. They're too busy churning out product to hear what their userbase wants. Sony makes what Sony wants. And it's beneath them to give even an official response to users as to whether or not their F5 "documentary" camera can have an assignable center crop button... not even a "We're working on it." Like I said earlier, the frustrating part is that Sony has all the resources and expertise to do things that Red or BMD just can't do, or can't do yet, be it scale, price, or tech. But Sony doesn't, even though they could put that loving, finishing touch on all their products, they just don't. Their idea of support is "let the users deal with it" or "it's good enough" or "we'll get to it when we get to it" and that's why I'm looking outside of Sony for now. If I want a half-baked camera, then dammit I'll get that from BMD and pay half the price, too.

After it became clear Cion's performance was disappointing, I really looked to Sony for something to span the gap between entry and pro... but seeing a year into the FS7, Sony's still dragging their feet, no doubt b/c their teams are working on yet another camera... I guess it's just back to waiting.

I wrote a while ago that I expected FS-700 to be discontinued when the FS5 Raw package became available. I think that to be a reasonable estimate. Maybe the NAB announcement and the summer'16 arrival/departure.

Since the thread about the underperforming FS7 raw, do you think the FS700 might still have a niche life? At $4k + whatever raw solution, it's still a tough deal to beat if it suits one's needs.