FS700, a7S, and a6000.

I am still wrapping up my last project in AVCHD that I filmed with my FS700 which I ended up shooting in all SLOG2. My 7Q came in so this might be the last full AVCHD edit I do. But, I will say that I have been able to get some grades I really like out of the SLOG2 even with just the AVCHD. I just found I had to approach the grade differently. Here are a few before after samples of what I am getting with AVCHD. I think the 8bit XAVC-S will be pretty gradable and only more so in recording externally. The C300 was only 8bit as well and CLOG produces some quiet beautiful robust images with it.



1 blades.jpg2 blades.jpg3 Machine.jpg4 machine.jpg5 Outside.jpg6 Outside.jpg7 Interview.jpg8 Interview.jpg
 
The Irish TRex said:
Damn. Well this is bad news. I had planned on shooting video using primarily crop lenses with the A7s. And at 1080p60 too! Hmmm. Do you know if it's at least better than an A7/A7R in crop mode at 1080p60? Bummer. I need this low light capability for our video events but need the APS-C power zoom lenses for our style of shooting. Guess we'll see samples of this after the 20th???
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If any of you recall sony's marketing material produced for the A7S(available all over the web), they clearly state there is no line skipping / binning in 4k, 1080p FF, and 1080p APSC while operating in 24-30fps modes. So the op seeing moire/aliasing at 60p in ANY mode should not come as a surprise.

As for 8 bit slog2 falling apart, I don't share that opinion. Many of my peers(including myself) find no issue with grading 8 bit codecs. If anything should be found wanting, it's the fact that it is shooting 50mbps @ 4:2:0, that is the shocker. My only guess is the bandwidth from the extra color space may have put operating temps in a place that engineers were not comfortable with.

I have lost count of how many commercials, documentaries and indie projects that get shot on 8 bit codecs(f3, c100, c300, 1dc, fs700) that undergo plenty of grading and manipulation, only to come out the other end looking FANTASTIC! Of course it cannot be manipulated the same as higher bit depth images, but if you(the photographer, dp, cinematographer) did your job properly, the scene would have already been exposed and shot in such a way that heavy manipulation wasn't required.
 
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Ah. Maybe that's why it looked good on the a7 hdmi out. I was probably getting 1080i50 / psf25 not 1080 50p. (As 7q should be able to do it but can't). (Or that it was 422 instead of 420). It seemed the output selection is only 1080p (at 50/60) or 1080i 50/60). U can't set 1080 p30 for instance. Maybe the a7s you can set the output more granularity ?
 
LeoGrey said:
If any of you recall sony's marketing material produced for the A7S(available all over the web), they clearly state there is no line skipping / binning in 4k, 1080p FF, and 1080p APSC while operating in 24-30fps modes. So the op seeing moire/aliasing at 60p in ANY mode should not come as a surprise.
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Yeah, I remember seeing that, but it was always in fine print and in all their interviews they never mention the fact that 60p doesn't involve line skipping/binning so I sort of blindly held out hope. Two things...

1) I wonder how serious it is compared to other models (A7, A7R, a6000, NEX6/5n, etc. and other DSLRs)?

2) I wonder why they can't avoid line skipping/binning in 60p mode?

...
 
LeoGrey said:
If any of you recall sony's marketing material produced for the A7S(available all over the web), they clearly state there is no line skipping / binning in 4k, 1080p FF, and 1080p APSC while operating in 24-30fps modes. So the op seeing moire/aliasing at 60p in ANY mode should not come as a surprise.

As for 8 bit slog2 falling apart, I don't share that opinion. Many of my peers(including myself) find no issue with grading 8 bit codecs. If anything should be found wanting, it's the fact that it is shooting 50mbps @ 4:2:0, that is the shocker. My only guess is the bandwidth from the extra color space may have put operating temps in a place that engineers were not comfortable with.

I have lost count of how many commercials, documentaries and indie projects that get shot on 8 bit codecs(f3, c100, c300, 1dc, fs700) that undergo plenty of grading and manipulation, only to come out the other end looking FANTASTIC! Of course it cannot be manipulated the same as higher bit depth images, but if you(the photographer, dp, cinematographer) did your job properly, the scene would have already been exposed and shot in such a way that heavy manipulation wasn't required.
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I always thought 8 bit was fine until I started using 7Q 10-bit. Yeah, you can get by with 8 bit, but once you start using 10 bit there is no way I would go back. As for the DP doing his job, SLog is so flat that it needs grading no matter what, unless you just want a log looking fashion spot.

All I can say is try the 7Q RAW or 10 bit codec. I'm sure your mind will change. The difference is massive.
 
If you have time and resources to control the image on a shoot then you will be better off not shooting 8-bit s-log in the first place.
It is most useful when you can't "do your job properly", and then 8 bits is an issue.
 
LeoGrey said:
As for 8 bit slog2 falling apart, I don't share that opinion. Many of my peers(including myself) find no issue with grading 8 bit codecs. If anything should be found wanting, it's the fact that it is shooting 50mbps @ 4:2:0, that is the shocker. My only guess is the bandwidth from the extra color space may have put operating temps in a place that engineers were not comfortable with.

I have lost count of how many commercials, documentaries and indie projects that get shot on 8 bit codecs(f3, c100, c300, 1dc, fs700) that undergo plenty of grading and manipulation, only to come out the other end looking FANTASTIC! Of course it cannot be manipulated the same as higher bit depth images, but if you(the photographer, dp, cinematographer) did your job properly, the scene would have already been exposed and shot in such a way that heavy manipulation wasn't required.
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Also, there's a big difference between C-Log and S-Log. C-Log is not true Log. It was designed by Canon for 8 bit codecs and more limited color space; and is not as flat as S-Log, which is definitely NOT designed for 8 Bit codes. At this point I've shot a bunch of stuff and done quite a few comparisons between AVCHD 8 Bit S-Log and 10 bit S-Log and there is no comparison at all.

S-Log needs 10 bits to truly shine. With 8 bit, yes, you can get by but you cannot push the grade past "normal," and "normal" is at the very edge of what it can hold.
 
here's the link for small test i did with a7S:
https://vimeo.com/98672067

as i put on the explanation in this video, this test is one tough situation for a7S. must have better performance with full size glass for full size sensor readout.

personally i've keen to check that APS-C mode for avoiding rolling shutter issue but now it has moire and highlight aliasing stuff... so it's gonna be very interesting how i'm gonna work with this baby.

anyway, the image from this camera is amazing i think. i'd better test one more time with XAVC-S sometime soon.

please download the 1080P from vimeo for checking, do not judge with web browsing!

thank you,

freiheit
 
Very helpful. Thanks.

Would you say its on par with the FS-700 DR or would the A7s have slightly better DR. Looks to be about the same in the last sample.
 
freiheit said:
here's the link for small test i did with a7S:
https://vimeo.com/98672067

as i put on the explanation in this video, this test is one tough situation for a7S. must have better performance with full size glass for full size sensor readout.

personally i've keen to check that APS-C mode for avoiding rolling shutter issue but now it has moire and highlight aliasing stuff... so it's gonna be very interesting how i'm gonna work with this baby.

anyway, the image from this camera is amazing i think. i'd better test one more time with XAVC-S sometime soon.

please download the 1080P from vimeo for checking, do not judge with web browsing!

thank you,

freiheit
Click to expand...
i didnt hv much problems with all the things you pointed out in the video at all! I thought it looked good. I want to see some more DR stress test though. But so far i have no issues. That AF looks fantastic.
 
dcloud said:
i didnt hv much problems with all the things you pointed out in the video at all! I thought it looked good. I want to see some more DR stress test though. But so far i have no issues. That AF looks fantastic.
Click to expand...

Yea...I would love to get more details of the auto focus. That looks smooth. Can you change the area of the frame that is the active focus area? ....unlike the Canon upgrade. Just curious how it works. That would be huge!
 
I have to say I'm impressed with how sharp and detailed the A7s 1080p image is next to the FS700 - especially compared to every other FF camera not running ML. I've owned the 5d2, A99, 5d3 and now the A7 - none of them are anywhere near as sharp. ML raw is the exception, but for me that workflow is just too cumbersome. I don't know if I'll ever shoot in APS-c with the A7s, so if this is worst case for the camera, I'm pretty happy.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Matt's footage looks good. The APC-crop may be a little soft or something else going on, but certainly within what you'd expect from a crop mode. Hard to say because there's only really the one shot (at different stops though).
 
Hmm interesting that the A7S still has the same black pixel problem as the FS700 on high contrast edges... That's too bad. Unless it's specific to the APS-C mode.
 
"full size mode","APS-C mode"...i have kinda mix feeling about this camera. APS-C mode will help to avoid that rolling shutter issue, (it clearly does exist in full size mode because of full size readout) then things i uploaded will happen to the footage.

i personally can't accept that highlight aliasing issue. Sony couldn't avoid that...again.

auto focus seems okay level but after seeing A6000's...gee, i don't know.

very impressed that small body camera has nearly equal performance with FS700 (internally) though. hope everyone get a chance to try it out. it's nice camera.
 
Freiheit, how do you like the A6000? Seems like People find it's video pretty damn good. For the price.
Want to get the A7S as b-cam to the FS700 but not sure I can swing it economically at the moment.
 
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