FS700, a7S, and a6000.

[freiheit]

Well that's a little concerning. The A7s is supposed to read out the entire 4K sensor and downsample that properly to 1080p. I wouldn't be expecting moire anywhere. The OLPF would be designed for 4K so it should really be producing a very moire and aliased free image.

I would really love to see samples of this....

The APS-C would be using a centre crop, so you can argue that the downsampling wouldn't be exactly half (as it is in the 4K-HD). Perhaps sony are binning on the APS-C mode.

thanks
Paul

yes, i was expected 100% moire free 1080P even APS-C mode. however it does exist and those strong moire/artifacts issue at 1080P/60fps, it's unacceptable...i don't know maybe i've seeing too much good moire free 4K footage from FS700 these days

i'm more concerned about that APS-C mode at 4K shooting...APS-C mode means crop (around 2.7K) so actually its upscaled 4K from 2.7K sensor size. i had no chance to test those 4K shooting stuff this time but am really keen to see how it does work.

 

[Colinelves]

Well that's a little concerning. The A7s is supposed to read out the entire 4K sensor and downsample that properly to 1080p. I wouldn't be expecting moire anywhere. The OLPF would be designed for 4K so it should really be producing a very moire and aliased free image.

I would really love to see samples of this....

The APS-C would be using a centre crop, so you can argue that the downsampling wouldn't be exactly half (as it is in the 4K-HD). Perhaps sony are binning on the APS-C mode.

thanks
Paul

You're assuming it has an OLPF. I'm pretty sure the Canon 7D and 5D don't have them (hence the moire issues they have) - as it is less of an issue for stills cameras. Of course, that does mean you can put your own OLPF in, not that they're particularly cheap.

 

[Alan Ting Judson]

The 8 bit from black to white contains the full dynamic range of the image, it's just that the steps between black to white are limited. If you take a higher resolution source and work in a higher bit depth when you scale that down you are creating in-between pixels which can become, say, fractions of 256 steps. Hence higher apparent bit depth. Is this *true* bit depth? Not really. But what it will do is to reduce the banding that might be visible in smooth areas which at the end of the day is really the biggest issue with 8 bit capture.

You could grade anywhere in that step but i'd guess the easiest way it to batch process down to 1080 with all the de-noising and scaling in then grade on the 1080p

cheers
Paul

so will it help in grading more easily than 8bit? or just quality improved

 

[morgan_moore]

You're assuming it has an OLPF. I'm pretty sure the Canon 7D and 5D don't have them (hence the moire issues they have) - as it is less of an issue for stills cameras. Of course, that does mean you can put your own OLPF in, not that they're particularly cheap.

Of course the Canons have OPLF filters - the cameras shoot what 5 or 6k? (stills) the the filter is designed to blur at the relevant frequency. ie 4950LPI or 5950LPI - which is no good for video mode when you need the blur to kick in at about 1900 or suchlike (for 1920)

S

 

[paulcurtis]

You're assuming it has an OLPF. I'm pretty sure the Canon 7D and 5D don't have them (hence the moire issues they have) - as it is less of an issue for stills cameras. Of course, that does mean you can put your own OLPF in, not that they're particularly cheap.

True, but i think it's a pretty safe bet at only 12mp, usually the OLPF comes off at high enough resolutions to not see the kind of detail that causes it (hence 36mp in the A7r), but i don't know for sure.

cheers
Paul

 

[paulcurtis]

yes, i was expected 100% moire free 1080P even APS-C mode. however it does exist and those strong moire/artifacts issue at 1080P/60fps, it's unacceptable...i don't know maybe i've seeing too much good moire free 4K footage from FS700 these days

i'm more concerned about that APS-C mode at 4K shooting...APS-C mode means crop (around 2.7K) so actually its upscaled 4K from 2.7K sensor size. i had no chance to test those 4K shooting stuff this time but am really keen to see how it does work.

I can understand moire at crop mode up to a certain point and i'm really not interested in crop mode for stills or video. Buy a a6000 for that.

But i am very concerned if the 1080p out of it shows any aliasing or moire at all. Same deal for 4K. From your original message - did you shoot in full frame mode too or just in crop mode?

Can you upload any still frames that show what you're seeing?

cheers
Paul

 

[freiheit]

I thought it could do 10 bit to a recorder such as the new one from Atomos or possibly the 7Q in the future? I personally want nothing to do with 8 Bit as once you've tasted 10 bit, you just cannot go back.

unfortunately a7S is 100% 8bit camera, from internal AVCHD to 4K (UHD) clean out.

kinda weird that even BMD pocket has nice 10bit but this newest, one most expected mirror less from Sony doesn't have!

 

[morgan_moore]

I've agonised over the A7s, ..this can do everything the FS100 could do too.

Im not at all sure that this camera will have (for HD delivery) any 'in reality' upgrades compared to the FS100.

The FS100 is moire free up to 60p has great ISO etc.

I seem to have a desire to retire the FS100, for the GH4 or A7s but the more I think about it the more im not convinced there will be any gains.

And with lack of XLR, mini HDMI there sure are losses.

The A7s only presents as an upgrade as it works with full-frame glass

S

 

[paulcurtis]

Im not at all sure that this camera will have (for HD delivery) any 'in reality' upgrades compared to the FS100.

The FS100 is moire free up to 60p has great ISO etc.

I seem to have a desire to retire the FS100, for the GH4 or A7s but the more I think about it the more im not convinced there will be any gains.

And with lack of XLR, mini HDMI there sure are losses.

The A7s only presents as an upgrade as it works with full-frame glass

S

You make good points, i'm hoping the A7s can do stuff just as well as the FS100 - i mean you have Slog2 (no colour issues) and XAVC (could use onboard recording). But it depends on how it is in real life, i've not seen any full size original movies to download anywhere

cheers
Paul

 

[Erik Wittbusch]

Same question for me.

Retire the FS100 for the A7s? I don't think so.
With the lack of proper XLR and the form factor it's more meant to be a B-cam with lowlight special features.
I'd like to see "real" footage first to see what the A7s is really capable of. But within 8bit, I don't expect to much.
It's actually more expensive as a used FS100 and still lacks many useful things.

DR isn't everything especially if it's not usable because of compression and codec...

I'll take the FS100 for another 14 day shooting at the end of the week at least - still like the size and ability to perform
with the right picture profile (I still use Frank's latest one tweaked a little).

 

[paulcurtis]

Same question for me.

Retire the FS100 for the A7s? I don't think so.
With the lack of proper XLR and the form factor it's more meant to be a B-cam with lowlight special features.
I'd like to see "real" footage first to see what the A7s is really capable of. But within 8bit, I don't expect to much.
It's actually more expensive as a used FS100 and still lacks many useful things.

DR isn't everything especially if it's not usable because of compression and codec...

I'll take the FS100 for another 14 day shooting at the end of the week at least - still like the size and ability to perform
with the right picture profile (I still use Frank's latest one tweaked a little).

We vary rarely use ours, A is all 4K RAW, i think it's Slog2 which is the draw in such a small form factor and the usability of it just depends what sony have done or are doing with xavc. I really don't understand why they can't give us 10bit though. It's a full frame sensor, there are no cinema lenses, it's not a 'pro' format so i cannot see it eating into sales of 'real' cameras.

But would make a fantastic B or crash cam

cheers
Paul

 

[freiheit]

a7S has XAVC-S, not XAVC.
it must have some improvement but XAVC-S is still 8bit420 so we can't expect much from it. it's just twice big sized H264.

the biggest/greatest data we can get from this camera is Uncompressed 8bit422. so difference between H264 is...you know it. exactly the same result with FS700's internal AVCHD and whatever external recorder like Ninja/Samurai.

for fair comparison, i did record same S-Log2 stuff with FS700 and a7S, internally. the result was almost same looks, there is minor color difference but almost same resolution. seems a7S has even better/smoother (less noise) because base ISO start from 1600, not 2000.

however i found no major difference from them...actually it's great that such small camera like a7S has same 1080P quality FS700 has.

all i've kept sayin during the test with a7S was "wish this baby camera has raw out..."

i will upload both original MTS file in 20th (Sony not allowed me to upload until the day they release a7S in Japan's market) !

 

[paulcurtis]

a7S has XAVC-S, not XAVC.
it must have some improvement but XAVC-S is still 8bit420 so we can't expect much from it. it's just twice big sized H264.

the biggest/greatest data we can get from this camera is Uncompressed 8bit422. so difference between H264 is...you know it. exactly the same result with FS700's internal AVCHD and whatever external recorder like Ninja/Samurai.

for fair comparison, i did record same S-Log2 stuff with FS700 and a7S, internally. the result was almost same looks, there is minor color difference but almost same resolution. seems a7S has even better/smoother (less noise) because base ISO start from 1600, not 2000.

however i found no major difference from them...actually it's great that such small camera like a7S has same 1080P quality FS700 has.

all i've kept sayin during the test with a7S was "wish this baby camera has raw out..."

i will upload both original MTS file in 20th (Sony not allowed me to upload until the day they release a7S in Japan's market) !

AFAIK XAVC-S is just the XAVC wrapped in mp4. However what Sony choose to implement with the A7s version of XAVC is up to them, i believe it's 8 bit 4:2:0 but the data rate could be up to 440mbs based on the possible spec. I believe it's around 50mbits. So, like for like it should produce a better file than AVCHD which was pretty good. Of course a cheap small 422 ProRes recorder is an easy buy. The question is really what the HDMI output compared to the XAVC would be like, because the internal route will have noise reduction and the internal pathway would probably not be 8 bit - therefore the XAVC has access to a better image than the external HDMI.

Whether this makes the blindest bit of difference i have no idea...

I didn't realise it was the 20th in Japan, is that an actual shipping date? Looking forward to seeing those files

thanks
Paul

 

[cpc]

I have low expectations for s-log in this camera (will love to be pleasantly surprised, though). More interested in the Cine gammas and Rec709(800%). But do you know where does the base ISO 1600 put mid grey in s-log2 with this camera? Same as s-log2 from the other cameras? Does it need to be rated at lower ISO than nominal for cleaner signal?
Also, did you happen to test rolling shutter by any chance?

 

[freiheit]

AFAIK XAVC-S is just the XAVC wrapped in mp4. However what Sony choose to implement with the A7s version of XAVC is up to them, i believe it's 8 bit 4:2:0 but the data rate could be up to 440mbs based on the possible spec. I believe it's around 50mbits. So, like for like it should produce a better file than AVCHD which was pretty good. Of course a cheap small 422 ProRes recorder is an easy buy. The question is really what the HDMI output compared to the XAVC would be like, because the internal route will have noise reduction and the internal pathway would probably not be 8 bit - therefore the XAVC has access to a better image than the external HDMI.

Whether this makes the blindest bit of difference i have no idea...

I didn't realise it was the 20th in Japan, is that an actual shipping date? Looking forward to seeing those files

thanks
Paul

i believe that XAVC-S for 1080P size is going to be 50Mbps so it's twice, actually less than twice big size of AVCHD file, right? and same 8bit420 H264.

i don't quite get that what you said about internal XAVC-S will be better than Uncompressed 8bit422...

anyway, 20th is the day we can get it from everywhere in Japan. almost every local store in town has huge "Sony a7" booth (especially in Tokyo) and i believe a7S will be the one in the center there, in the morning of the 20th.

 

[dcloud]

Is the japanese version pal ntsc switchable? Also language switchable :>

 

[cpc]

Also language switchable :>

Most likely no.
But you can usually buy overseas models in special tourist oriented shops (and often with some tax deductions as a bonus).
Japanese price is pretty good too, significantly better than both US and Eu prices.

 

[freiheit]

Is the japanese version pal ntsc switchable? Also language switchable :>

no PAL nor language switchable for Japanese a7S.

the price for a7S will be around 220000 JPY (around 2100 USD) and available this Friday, the 20th.

 

[timmytimetravel]

I found a noticeable improvement with image quality using the hdmi out of the Sony a7 (not a7s). Using hdmi To h2s to 7q. To my eye much of the moire and aliasing was gone. Maybe this is just a 422 thing. But it was getting to be a close match for the 4k2hd surprisingly. I had issues with the 7q reliably detecting the signal, but I was expecting the same thing from the 7s?

 

[The Irish TRex]

the time i did test with a7S, i only had a chance to do it with "APS-C" mode with genuine E mount lens and EF mount (Canon L) lens with Metabones Smart Adapter ver.2 i've own.

and that APS-C mode didn't gave me the best resolution i've expected. it had minor moire and bitter highlight aliasing, and once i switched to 1080P/60fps, the footage had kinda strong moire...some sensor readout issue doing on, i think.

to get full potential the a7S has, better get using with FE mount lens, or your lens collection with Metabones Smart Adapter "ver.3 or 4", not with ver.1 nor 2.

with full frame size lens, a7S must have beautiful moire free 1080P and UHD footage.

Damn. Well this is bad news. I had planned on shooting video using primarily crop lenses with the A7s. And at 1080p60 too! Hmmm. Do you know if it's at least better than an A7/A7R in crop mode at 1080p60? Bummer. I need this low light capability for our video events but need the APS-C power zoom lenses for our style of shooting. Guess we'll see samples of this after the 20th???