FS7: FS7 successor (rumours/expectations)

[cane141]

I think the fs7 has made a dent in F5 sales .. thats for sure.. but as an f5 owner the success of the fs7 has only been a huge plus.. most of the requests I get are for fs7.. as soon as I explain the f5 files will be exactly the same .. and actually its a higher end camera .. no problems.. why are you finding it a hard sell.. my rates are higher now than when I bought there f5.. 4 yrs ago.. the files on a HDD are exactly the same from an fs7 or f5.. what are you telling the clients who ask for fs7..????

Just to clarify I'm not a salesman, I just mean I have been on countless shoots where they majority is shot on FS7's and bringing an F5 to the party isn't a popular choice to make when they just want the same cameras, same xqd cards etc.

I shoot a lot of the same events, Multicam ( not live ) and corporates year to year.
Back in 2014/2015, there were a lot more F5's and F55's around, and the same camera operators/DP/s this year are shooting the same events today on FS7's and FS5's.

From what I remember, even Philip Bloom ditched his F55 in favour of the FS7; there seems to have been a switch-over for a lot of F5/F55 owners to the FS series.
It's not to say the FS range is better in this regard, obviously not, I guess makes more business / practical sense where the cameras are more suited for those projects with form factor and price, even if it means a hit on image quality.


I've switched back to the FS7 II after a year of C300mkii / C200 combo, and the Canon image is sharper for sure but unfortunately just seemed difficult to get on certain jobs with other Dp's / Cam Op's who all predominantly roll with Sony FS7's here in the middle east.

 

[Tom Roper]

This is where you have to 'read the runes' - I have been saying MF S35 zooms are not a wise investment for years

That $65k of lenses may have to be thrown away

Of course that lovely glass and your F55 will work till you retire - so dont throw them away

But you demonstrate why I feel we are at a critical juncture.. the 'next FS7' will be AF, and will need a Sony AF glass investment to sit with it.


Im as wary of buying AF sony glass as I am wary of buying MF cine glass.


Which is why I feel the 'next fs7' might be a Canon

No one ever lost $50k buying Canon L glass because it is universally resalable.

There is a picture on Paul Cronin's website of Doug leaning over his zoomed F55 as he tracked a Falcon 9 rocket, with hand clearly on the focus ring tracking an object in the sky 6 miles away. That's what a pro does, that's the job. The better you are at it, the more in demand you are and your reputation. You're just being lazy.

There's no critical juncture here. It's always been that way, people without the skills looking for the easy fix, the magic carpet to nirvana. That pursuit never changes. It also never finds nirvana.
Universally resalable here on L glass is a metaphor for the yellow brick road to help speed your investment loss quicker because cheap transactions out number expensive ones exponentially. If you buy with the worry about the safety of your future resale you are in over you head. Cinema glass isn't going in the dumpster. The PL mount has already outlived the FD and EF. It will remain relevant as long as cinema. A pool of ready buyers for upscale but still inferior L glass that lack even an aperture ring or smooth stops. I know, I've got piles of them. An eager market of budget conscious shoppers looking to exploit your bad fortune is the reality of your universally resalable marketplace.

 

[morgan_moore]

Doug is clearly a good operator, Im very impressed with his long lens skills and MF. Id personally very much like to own some of the PL glass he owns.

But this thread is not about him, or 'lazy, skillless easy fix seeking' me ( ) it is about predictions of a future mid level camera aimed at corporate and doco gigs and the production environment, including economics, that surrounds them.

AF and an app is extremely cost effective vs a remote focus, rods, transmitter and all that gubbins - partly cost effective due to setup time/pack down size.

I have all that schlub - wireless remote and monitor fancy primes bla - but on small gigs it is not used - my gimbal/remote focus, wireless monitor, two operator rig is wonderful, but not the same as a little camera on a Zibong Crane and face AF for a quick bit of walking B roll on a corporate gig.

Ive just got back from a foreign and having a camera (we are considering XF705 next time) that can be 'brought to bear' fast is just correct for some jobs. The 7 occupies the top of that zone - it doesnt really occupy the 'cinematography' zone

S

 

[Tom Roper]

Just to clarify I'm not a salesman, I just mean I have been on countless shoots where they majority is shot on FS7's and bringing an F5 to the party isn't a popular choice to make when they just want the same cameras, same xqd cards etc.

I shoot a lot of the same events, Multicam ( not live ) and corporates year to year.
Back in 2014/2015, there were a lot more F5's and F55's around, and the same camera operators/DP/s this year are shooting the same events today on FS7's and FS5's.

From what I remember, even Philip Bloom ditched his F55 in favour of the FS7; there seems to have been a switch-over for a lot of F5/F55 owners to the FS series.
It's not to say the FS range is better in this regard, obviously not, I guess makes more business / practical sense where the cameras are more suited for those projects with form factor and price, even if it means a hit on image quality.


I've switched back to the FS7 II after a year of C300mkii / C200 combo, and the Canon image is sharper for sure but unfortunately just seemed difficult to get on certain jobs with other Dp's / Cam Op's who all predominantly roll with Sony FS7's here in the middle east.

Couple points here:

1.) You can shoot XQD cards on an F5/F55. You can also shoot 4k at 120fps or 16 bit raw.

2.) I shoot weddings with a pair of Panasonic GH5/s on my hips. It isn't because I've dumped my F55 in favor of a more popular camera. No one who actually owned an F5/55 switched over to an FS7 because of any reason other than what you stated, more practical because of form factor or economics, perfectly good reasons. The F5/55 is no less capable than it ever was but is now repurposed for a more upscale role, but that doesn't mean its owners have moved into more upscale roles along with it. I could be an example of that. Wedding shoots are demanding work but hardly upscale.

 

[Tom Roper]

But this thread is not about him, or 'lazy, skillless easy fix seeking' me ( ) it is about predictions of a future mid level camera aimed at corporate and doco gigs and the production environment, including economics, that surrounds them.

Well okay then! :smile:

/Rant_off

 

[cane141]

Couple points here:

1.) You can shoot XQD cards on an F5/F55. You can also shoot 4k at 120fps or 16 bit raw.

2.) I shoot weddings with a pair of Panasonic GH5/s on my hips. It isn't because I've dumped my F55 in favor of a more popular camera. No one who actually owned an F5/55 switched over to an FS7 because of any reason other than what you stated, more practical because of form factor or economics, perfectly good reasons. The F5/55 is no less capable than it ever was but is now repurposed for a more upscale role, but that doesn't mean its owners have moved into more upscale roles along with it. I could be an example of that. Wedding shoots are demanding work but hardly upscale.

1st point.)
As I understood, I thought the F55 shot on SXS cards? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...sxs_1_128gb_440_200_mbs.html/pageID/accessory

2nd.) I am not saying this is fact everywhere, but I work mainly in the UK and UAE, and I know a lot of DP/Cam Ops, and this has been a trend across the board. I know of a handful of production co's who used to shoot on F5's/F55 who have swapped out for a FS7's and FS5's.


I don't really buy the "repurposing for more upscale roles..." if something is upscale, then today it's Arri or RED 100% and prob more recently Venice I guess.
Not many rental houses even have an F55 anymore as there has been such a decline.
The FS7 has been used on a lot of TV commercials and fair few feature films were a few years back, it probably would've been the F55.

 

[Run&Gun]

Just to clarify I'm not a salesman, I just mean I have been on countless shoots where they majority is shot on FS7's and bringing an F5 to the party isn't a popular choice to make when they just want the same cameras, same xqd cards etc.

I shoot a lot of the same events, Multicam ( not live ) and corporates year to year.
Back in 2014/2015, there were a lot more F5's and F55's around, and the same camera operators/DP/s this year are shooting the same events today on FS7's and FS5's.

From what I remember, even Philip Bloom ditched his F55 in favour of the FS7; there seems to have been a switch-over for a lot of F5/F55 owners to the FS series.
It's not to say the FS range is better in this regard, obviously not, I guess makes more business / practical sense where the cameras are more suited for those projects with form factor and price, even if it means a hit on image quality.


I've switched back to the FS7 II after a year of C300mkii / C200 combo, and the Canon image is sharper for sure but unfortunately just seemed difficult to get on certain jobs with other Dp's / Cam Op's who all predominantly roll with Sony FS7's here in the middle east.

1st point.)
As I understood, I thought the F55 shot on SXS cards? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...sxs_1_128gb_440_200_mbs.html/pageID/accessory

2nd.) I am not saying this is fact everywhere, but I work mainly in the UK and UAE, and I know a lot of DP/Cam Ops, and this has been a trend across the board. I know of a handful of production co's who used to shoot on F5's/F55 who have swapped out for a FS7's and FS5's.


I don't really buy the "repurposing for more upscale roles..." if something is upscale, then today it's Arri or RED 100% and prob more recently Venice I guess.
Not many rental houses even have an F55 anymore as there has been such a decline.
The FS7 has been used on a lot of TV commercials and fair few feature films were a few years back, it probably would've been the F55.

The F5/55 does shoot on SxS cards natively, BUT it also shoots on XQD cards via Sony SxS adapters. I shoot XQD/SxS adapters. If you use the Sony adapters and correct Sony cards, they're approved for all internal frame rates, resolutions and codecs.

The fs7/5's apparent popularity with the masses over the F5/55 is solely based on economics(much cheaper cameras), not because they are better cameras in really any regard, including ergonomics. At least the F5/55 have real VF's and real VF mounts. I'm not knocking the fs7, again, as has been said ad nauseam, it's great bang-for-the-buck, but I would never get rid of my F55 for an fs7 or fs7II. And when I hear that "celebrity DP X" prefers this camera or that camera or got rid of this for that, I automatically tune it out, because they are usually so far removed from the actual type of work most of us are doing, as to be irrelevant. Not knocking Philip Bloom, but I really don't care what he's shooting on. It doesn't affect me or my clients one bit. And we are in much different markets. The UK is much different than the US. Even the US west coast is much different than the US east coast, as far as camera popularity. You even used to see a big difference in lighting brand popularity between say NY and LA.

 

[LennyLevy]

There are a couple of technical reasons why the FS7 is more popular than the 5/55 though I don't know if they are nearly as important as price. For me they do matter though.

In low light both the F5 and FS7 trump the F55 by about 2/3 stop because they lack the global shutter. Of course that's both good and bad depending on what you're shooting.

Likewise the E Mt offers the use of speed booster EF or Nikon FF lenses which provide both an extra stop of light and and lower depth of field. Again there's a plus and minus to that because it ties you into DSLR lenses. Speed in low light thought has served me quite well and its easy enough to adapt PL lenses to an FS7 also.

An improved camera could offer a Full Frame sensor which like a7ii or A7sii can adapt to super 35, a lens mount that could adapt from E Mt to PL and accept full frame or super 35/APS-C lenses, a color system based on the Vegas which offers color correction while in Log mode and an improved AF system for those that want it. This is not at all an impossible goal for Sony as all of these technologies exist in other models. I also suspect it would not be impossible to build something like this in both FS5 and full size camera models.

 

[Tom Roper]

I don't really buy the "repurposing for more upscale roles..." if something is upscale, then today it's Arri or RED 100% and prob more recently Venice I guess.
Not many rental houses even have an F55 anymore as there has been such a decline.
The FS7 has been used on a lot of TV commercials and fair few feature films were a few years back, it probably would've been the F55.

You don't have to buy it, except that you already are if you've watched Big Bang Theory, Mom, The Blacklist, 60 Minutes, Ryder Cup, or the Netflix award winning 4k series, The Crown, Black Mirror. It's not all Arri or Red, especially network television, live sports too. The Red owners were very disturbed because some of them had believed The Crown was using Red. Sounds like you may have a burr under your saddle too. There's no march to replace F55 with FS7, except as a nice lower cost, lighter weight alternative for dslr lenses that does pretty much the same thing in a smaller color space, lower quality raw and internal codec, rolling shutter.

Actually, I think FS7 doesn't have the 480 Mbps All-I XAVC codec yet either, and I know it doesn't have the F55 features in custom mode, for example S-gamut3.cine like is available in custom mode with S-Log3 for people who are interested in the tunings like WB, Detail, Gain (actual, not EI); not available to Cine-EI mode.

 

[LennyLevy]

Actually, I think FS7 doesn't have the 480 Mbps All-I XAVC codec yet either, and I know it doesn't have the F55 features in custom mode, for example S-gamut3.cine like is available in custom mode with S-Log3 for people who are interested in the tunings like WB, Detail, Gain (actual, not EI); not available to Cine-EI mode.

Actually that's a good point and are definite disadvantages for the FS7.

 

[Donny 123]

Just to clarify I'm not a salesman, I just mean I have been on countless shoots where they majority is shot on FS7's and bringing an F5 to the party isn't a popular choice to make when they just want the same cameras, same xqd cards etc.

I shoot a lot of the same events, Multicam ( not live ) and corporates year to year.
Back in 2014/2015, there were a lot more F5's and F55's around, and the same camera operators/DP/s this year are shooting the same events today on FS7's and FS5's.

From what I remember, even Philip Bloom ditched his F55 in favour of the FS7; there seems to have been a switch-over for a lot of F5/F55 owners to the FS series.
It's not to say the FS range is better in this regard, obviously not, I guess makes more business / practical sense where the cameras are more suited for those projects with form factor and price, even if it means a hit on image quality.


I've switched back to the FS7 II after a year of C300mkii / C200 combo, and the Canon image is sharper for sure but unfortunately just seemed difficult to get on certain jobs with other Dp's / Cam Op's who all predominantly roll with Sony FS7's here in the middle east.

Sure see your point and agree.. if I had the choice between the two now.. (when I bought the f5 there was no Fs7).. I would be tempted by the Fs7II with the variable ND.. and now the proper mount and sturdier chassis in the front.. if the back add on wasn't so ugly in design ..I need TC in.. sorry I was talking from an existing owner point of view that the popularity of the Fs7 has generated a massive amount of work for my f5.. it was alot more of a hard sell when it first came out and no one knew about XAVC.. and the C300 ruled.. now I guess C300II owners are feeling it the other way round.. they definitely should have gone over to an Fs7..personally I have never lost a job with the f5 because I didnt have an Fs7..the fact they all want the fs7 in there first place has been a huge bonus really. but I dont do any multi camera camera stuff, except a B cam sometimes.. (always an Fs7).. so yes I agree for those shoots where they want all the cards the same I can see the problem.. I do know quite a few people who own both I guess to get around this problem .. or they need a B cameras nearly every shoot.. then better to buy your own.. I would also buy an Fs7 over an f5 as a B camera.. and I have used it a few times.. but some fundamental things.. like lack of LCD that Ive got so used to.. no TC in.. no native V mount ..crap EVF and the menu wheel that I find very uncomfortable.. at the moment anyway I wouldn't want it as my A cam.. .but to your point yes I now see for multi camera shoots .. your right.. also in REC709 Ive never found the fs7 to match exactly the f5 .. even because of different lenses maybe.. I dont know.. so I guess a live event or something with no grading that could be a problem..

 

[cane141]

The F5/55 does shoot on SxS cards natively, BUT it also shoots on XQD cards via Sony SxS adapters. I shoot XQD/SxS adapters. If you use the Sony adapters and correct Sony cards, they're approved for all internal frame rates, resolutions and codecs.

The fs7/5's apparent popularity with the masses over the F5/55 is solely based on economics(much cheaper cameras), not because they are better cameras in really any regard, including ergonomics. At least the F5/55 have real VF's and real VF mounts. I'm not knocking the fs7, again, as has been said ad nauseam, it's great bang-for-the-buck, but I would never get rid of my F55 for an fs7 or fs7II. And when I hear that "celebrity DP X" prefers this camera or that camera or got rid of this for that, I automatically tune it out, because they are usually so far removed from the actual type of work most of us are doing, as to be irrelevant. Not knocking Philip Bloom, but I really don't care what he's shooting on. It doesn't affect me or my clients one bit. And we are in much different markets. The UK is much different than the US. Even the US west coast is much different than the US east coast, as far as camera popularity. You even used to see a big difference in lighting brand popularity between say NY and LA.

I never mentioned the FS7/5 being the "better" cam, but merely an observation, for many, they have traded down in recent years, for form factor, low light, weight, popularity over image quality etc. Also, Philip Bloom is just an example and most probably doing a lot of the same work that most of us do, why not?

Corporates, news, online promos... shorts, who cares, it's just the same nut's n bolts work.

Yes, he is a famous YT blogger as well but essentially doing what we do and contributing to our hunger for new camera tech at the same time.

I get it; you personally would never ditch the F55 for an FS7, that's missing my point. I am just stating an observation with a lot DP's who have done exactly that, trading down the F55/F5 for something like the FS7 for owner op jobs and maybe hiring the Arri's and RED's for the bigger jobs that come along, and most probably the F55 if needed but essentially, a lot of companies and DP's have gone this route.
It makes sense in today's climate, where something like FS7 II with good glass can achieve a lot of the same for certain jobs.

The same is true of RED, where the Red Epic MX and Dragons were classics, and a lot of people switched over to the Scarlet-W and Raven's, fewer specs but much better in other ways. Newer chassis and power DSMC 2, etc. etc

 

[stewhem]

I've switched back to the FS7 II after a year of C300mkii / C200 combo, and the Canon image is sharper for sure but unfortunately just seemed difficult to get on certain jobs with other Dp's / Cam Op's who all predominantly roll with Sony FS7's here in the middle east.

Hi, not wishing to start a "which camera is best" war but I really have to disagree . I also sold my Canon 300 Mk2, and a stack of the latest L glass and I find the FS7 with Sony's e glass actually to be sharper. My experience is these days it's the glass and how you use it that makes the biggest difference. FWIW I also find the LUTs from Canon to be worse than useless. Sony's are only marginally better and now I grade everything from scratch in Resolve. YMMV.

edit: sorry this was off topic but couldn't resist!

 

[cane141]

Hi, not wishing to start a "which camera is best" war but I really have to disagree . I also sold my Canon 300 Mk2, and a stack of the latest L glass and I find the FS7 with Sony's e glass actually to be sharper. My experience is these days it's the glass and how you use it that makes the biggest difference. FWIW I also find the LUTs from Canon to be worse than useless. Sony's are only marginally better and now I grade everything from scratch in Resolve. YMMV.

edit: sorry this was off topic but couldn't resist!

Not at all, I feel that the Canon 12bit 2K 4444 is what had the edge, It felt like it was sharper compared to the FS7 in HD in the edit suite but I totally agree that glass has a lot to do with this and maybe the MB Speedbooster on the FS7 takes the edge off a little but with Sony G lenses I imagine it would hold up well.

 

[Liam Hall]

maybe the MB Speedbooster on the FS7 takes the edge off a little but with Sony G lenses I imagine it would hold up well.

Theoretically, Speedboosters add sharpness.

 

[morgan_moore]

Interesting that this is becoming a FS7 vs Canon thread.

When I bought the FS7 I had a choice
MF 4k 10bit 150fps sony with speedboosting option and functional XLR placement for $8g
vs
MF 50-HD 30p Canon with no speedboosting option and non functional XLR placement for $14g

no - brainer

Canon 'on paper' have turned that table quite a bit with the C200 offering AF, functional XLR placement, raw, 18-80 etc

Sony are in a tough place not to 'kill' the F5/55 yet still be no brainer ahead of Canon.

My position is Ill probably just stick with the 7 until at least next years 'show season' but at that point Id certainly be having a close look at other options.

Even the GH5s and ZcamE2 has a paper spec that take a need for looking at.

 

[alaskacameradude]

Interesting that this is becoming a FS7 vs Canon thread.



Canon 'on paper' have turned that table quite a bit with the C200 offering AF, functional XLR placement, raw, 18-80 etc

OK, I can see the AF and raw. But 18-80, isn't anything special that you can't get with
Sony. Sony has an 18-110 that is just as fast (F4) and even better in some respects.
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see that as any special selling point
for the C200. Unless you mean Canon has 'caught up' in this regard to Sony as they
did not previously offer a versatile power zoom lens and now they at least have an offering
in that space. I guess I could go along with that angle.

 

[morgan_moore]

Neither brands had a basic (18-xx) zoom when the FS7/C300 was launched, the speed booster helped get around that for Sony as a boosted 24-105 is 'adequate' but that 'trick' didnt work on canon (!) - giving sony a big advantage.

The last bbc doc shoot I saw they had an army of children with twisted necks shooting on FS7, booster, 24-105 setups. I wonder how much soft footage the editor is flooring and if he/she is enjoying the lack of TC

And the FS7 is for armys of children - not for Doug and his MF skilled PL mastery

The next FS7 needs to allow that editor to get bit more sharp footage or the minimum wage producers will just buy a pile of XF 705s.

 

[stewhem]

I stick with the view that lenses make the biggest difference. Put a good lens on an FS7 and it will hold its sharpness against any camera of similar resolution. There may be other areas where it might be weaker, like codecs, bit rates, etc, but sharpness is not one of them IMHO.

If the BBC - whose standards in so many areas have slipped massively in the last few years and really don't deserve to be considered the standard to aim for - are happy to shoot on 24-105 glass then they'll get what they deserve. And I agree, Sam, I've seen them using that combo and I'd hate to be an editor having to work with that sort of "quality" and then send it through the broadcast chain.

About the booster: I've never used one so don't know how sharpness is affected but I don't see how you can add sharpness to a less than perfect lens? Don't the laws of physics prevent that? Isn't it like adding sharpness in post, when all you actually do is risk artefacts, etc? As I said, never used one so might be wrong - it has been known!

 

[morgan_moore]

About the booster: I've never used one so don't know how sharpness is affected but I don't see how you can add sharpness to a less than perfect lens? Don't the laws of physics prevent that? Isn't it like adding sharpness in post, when all you actually do is risk artefacts, etc? As I said, never used one so might be wrong - it has been known!

You can 'add sharpness' thus..

A typical FF lens may resolve 4k over the area of a vista/FF sensor.

If you just use the middle of that lenses image circle you will get only about 2.5k resolution. (the rest of the resolution is not hitting the sensor)

Using a booster you can 'focus' that 4k of resolution onto the smaller chip but the focussing is going through extra glass elements from a cheap maker so you lose some resolution.

Result..
4k full frame lens on ..

FF sensor - resolves 4k

S35 sensor - resolves 2.5k

S35 sensor with booster resolves maybe 3.5k