FS7: FS7 RAW woes & data distribution between: 12-bit RAW, 16-bit RAW, & 10-bit S-Log

yoclay said:
Frankly, I think as soon as you consider investing the money in a RED Weapon system, you should be asking whether or not to go Arri instead.
From an investment point of view it makes more sense, as the latter hold their value far longer and are always out working.
Red owner operators on the other hand are often doing firesales in order to recoup the cost of their systems. This is a dangerous situation.

The Reduser site has a lot of great info, but the gung ho, us against the world, (you go dude!) crap, it just too hard to swallow.
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Frankly, for the price of the cheapest Alexa setup you could probably have 2 x Epic Dragon setups. You are not comparing Apples to Apples here. Plus the whole 4k/6k/8k thing.

Also, and I know this might be blasphemy... But some people prefer the look they wrangle out of a Red camera.

There's just as many idiots and weird borderline fetishist fanboys (hate that term but none other fits) on here. The only difference is it's split across a bunch of cameras on DVX whereas (understandably) there is a bias towards Red on Reduser.

As with most forums I frequent, I ignore the people or conversations that aren't of interest or don't give anything back to me... Although I think I've mentioned on DVXUser a fair few times I find myself defending Red on here and defending Sony on there!

starcentral said:
I think when I get my RED camera next year, I'm going to have to start my own forum.

No way I'm stepping foot in there, I will be scolded like a school boy for merely having an opinion. :shocked:
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As a knowledgeable and respectful person that contributes a lot to the community I think you would be very warmly welcomed there. I know I always have been.

What other company allows you to speak directly to the CEO, to the person designing the colour science and the people in charge of logistics, all on a public forum?
 
I think RED is mature enough now there is nothing really to contribute or say about it. I'd be hard pressed to write about it or it's mysteries etc.. As it is I think Phil Holland does great work bringing light to the RED cameras in a completely respectful, courteous, and non-condecending manner. Otherwise honestly I feel its like a circus there and I don't need any part of that. I honestly would start my own forum, I had been thinking about it for F-series but I put it on the back burner.

But Ben you hit the nail on the head regarding Alexa/RED. A friend of mine just spent $100k on the mini Alexa and like I said I just can't afford ARRI plus I'm not one to rent out my gear. I don't have enough jobs that would justify it. The F55 is a good camera for in-between independent camera owner-operator / suitable for higher end "ARRI" type jobs. My work is getting better with the Sony so when I share some private links or frame grabs I can convince most skeptics. Really people don't seem to pixel peep like I do, almost OCD'ish.

I know I write a lot of bad on Sony from time to time, some of it is just my own lack of experience or I am still learning the "sony way" but I will always argue RED, BMD, ARRI and Canon make it easier.
 
Ultimately we are all looking for something in our images, in our workflow and in our budget that the guy next to us might not be looking for. There's scope for everyone to find the thing they are looking whilst not putting all their eggs in one basket.

I bought an FS7 for purely financial reasons and it paid for itself very quickly. I'll choose a Red because I prefer the image quality and (for me anyway) ease of use. I'd like to rent an Alexa for a few jobs next year when I can. Will happily shoot on a C300 mk2 if someone else owns it.

My only hates are GoPros, and even then there IS a time and a place for them. *








* So I bought the Sony 4k action cam instead ;)
 
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Ben Scott said:
Frankly, for the price of the cheapest Alexa setup you could probably have 2 x Epic Dragon setups. You are not comparing Apples to Apples here. Plus the whole 4k/6k/8k thing.

Also, and I know this might be blasphemy... But some people prefer the look they wrangle out of a Red camera.

There's just as many idiots and weird borderline fetishist fanboys (hate that term but none other fits) on here. The only difference is it's split across a bunch of cameras on DVX whereas (understandably) there is a bias towards Red on Reduser.

As with most forums I frequent, I ignore the people or conversations that aren't of interest or don't give anything back to me... Although I think I've mentioned on DVXUser a fair few times I find myself defending Red on here and defending Sony on there!



As a knowledgeable and respectful person that contributes a lot to the community I think you would be very warmly welcomed there. I know I always have been.

What other company allows you to speak directly to the CEO, to the person designing the colour science and the people in charge of logistics, all on a public forum?
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I referred to RED Weapon, not Epic Dragon's in my post.
I am currently seeing Red Epic Dragons with totally usuable configurations going for 350 euros per day in my market. (Paris, France) On the other hand a standard Alexa (not XT Plus) is still renting for at least 1000-1500 euros per day and they are always out. So you do the math in terms of wise investing.

Further, the reality is that when Weapon 8K really hits the market, all those other bodies are going to plummet in terms of purchase and rental value. one reason is because all the accessories for Epic Dragon will be EOL as a result. They are not compatible with the new Weapon system. This means you will spend at least 50-80K to stay up to date with weapon. Not very far from Arri pricing. Weapon is going to be a lot more expensive than the Epic/Dragon range and you are going to need new accessories as well. Not 30K like in the past. So no, Epic Dragons do not in my opinion represent good investment value. And no, you will not get two new Weapon systems for the price of a new Alexa. In fact they are going to be exactly on par. Because this is how RED has decided to move towards the high end market and challenge Arri. This is also how they have also screwed most of the owner operators out there, because the product they can afford to hold will no longer be on par with what the rental houses hold. This goes against the original philosophy of RED itself.

So unless you are speaking of buying two used bodies (or should I say "battle tested"?) compared to a new one, I think the realities may be slightly different than you imagine. On the other hand if you are speaking of value for money, well then who can beat $1500 for a used F3? :cool::cool:

After that it is of course a matter of personal taste. As I have stated numerous times, I remain singularly unimpressed at how RED color science deals with skin tones in many situations and as I do a lot of grading for a living, my experience has shown me that I will take an Alexa every time over a RED for narrative. This is why it holds it's value so well.
 
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but if you don't have the money and the market for an Alexa purchase and rentals then you don't have the money and the market. And the Alexa rents for nowhere near that over in the UK.


You seem to have a huge axe to grind against them for everything they do from their IQ to their customer support and service down to the silly stickers they have on their cameras and that's absolutely your prerogative. Frankly I think it's bollocks and the idea that we are in a Sony sub-forum discussing whether Red gives a crap about its customers is hilarious to me, but there you go.
 
I just don't see why someone would spend Alexa money on a RED that only shots a lossy compressed format in 2015/2016. At that level of the market I would simply expect at least the option for uncompressed RAW. Storage, recording hardware and processing power are no longer an obstacle like they were a few years ago.

A used Alexa or F55 makes a lot more sense to me.
 
Ben Scott said:
Because Redcode is utterly brilliant. But I'm not going to convince you of that.
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Probably not, because I've had to deal with it intimately for many years and I see the problems with it.

It may work for straight dramatic work, but it's less than ideal for things like process screens, which are ubiquitous these days in production.

But my point is that uncompressed RAW should at least be an option in this day and age and at that level of the market. As far as I know RED is the only maker of digital cinema cameras that does not offer RAW at least as an option in addition to compressed output.
 
Each to their own. I think uncompressed raw is absurd when you compare Red @ 3-5:1 file sizes and qualities.

It was only a couple of years ago that the industry was complaining about raw and demanding everyone master with pro res.
 
Ben Scott said:
but if you don't have the money and the market for an Alexa purchase and rentals then you don't have the money and the market. And the Alexa rents for nowhere near that over in the UK.


You seem to have a huge axe to grind against them for everything they do from their IQ to their customer support and service down to the silly stickers they have on their cameras and that's absolutely your prerogative. Frankly I think it's bollocks and the idea that we are in a Sony sub-forum discussing whether Red gives a crap about its customers is hilarious to me, but there you go.
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No axe to grind. Frankly I don't care what camera you buy. Nor did I mention anything about customer support or silly stickers in this thread. So I don't really know what you are going on about.

The only thing I can say as a guy that has to frequently pick up the pieces at the end of a job is I know what I am seeing. The RED color science still has issues. I am not alone. Someone else who works in post production here is telling you exactly the same thing. Now you can choose to believe that everyone including myself and the people who are shooting which we deal with are completely incompetent, or worse yet just having a dig at RED and that is your prerogative. It's all bollocks right?

However, my point remains that as of next year Weapon will cease to be affordable and will come into line with Alexa prices. The only thing I said is that it at that point it therefore bears looking seriously at Arri because the market has shown that it will hold it's value far longer. So what's the big deal? Seems to me that you are the one who has gotten all bent out of shape.
 
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As I say, it's completely your prerogative. We are obviously going to agree on very little on this matter - from pricing to image and colour issues to the rest of it. No system is perfect. Everything is a compromise. Even Alexa isn't perfect. But why would I take your word for something, which you've not supported with anything for others to see, when I used it week in week out for a few years and went from acquisition to post to grading to delivery without the hitches you refer to?

I'll leave it alone now as I've derailed the thread enough.
 
Nirv said:
another look at my girlfriend test.

xavc has some of the worst compression artefacts I've ever seen especially in large areas of similar luminance. The codec seems to disproportionately crunch these areas while using most of the bits for detail.
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You know guys, I am not sure it is the codec. I think honestly it is likely SLOG3 which is aggravating the situation. I have never been convinced about either SLOG2 or 3 for that matter. Could be interesting to see compared with a Prores file shot externally at the same time. My guess is that compression artifacts are only part of the story.
 
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yoclay said:
You know guys, I am not sure it is the codec. I think honestly it is likely SLOG3 which is aggravating the situation. I have never been convinced about either SLOG2 or 3 for that matter. Could be interesting to see compared with a Prores file shot externally at the same time. My guess is that compression artifacts are only part of the story.
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This is a narrow key on a crop of a sky region where I've put enough contrast to expose the underlying compression of XAVC. You can clearly see that it is favouring the detail of the trees and heavily blocking the sky region.

The large ugly blocks of posterisation completely destroy the ability to get full value from your 10 bit files so this is an in built limitation Sony has decided upon. It is obvious this is a built in limitation because although the FS7 is capable of much higher bitrates to record UHD/4K we cannot use those same higher bitrates to record HD/2K. These are not technical limitations but limitations imposed to segment the market and drive users towards RAW recording in the F5/F55 cameras.

I began looking at RAW-ProRes recording to overcome these compression issues but thanks to this thread I've knocked that idea on the head.

2yuaosm.png
 
Nirv said:
This is a narrow key on a crop of a sky region where I've put enough contrast to expose the underlying compression of XAVC. You can clearly see that it is favouring the detail of the trees and heavily blocking the sky region.

The large ugly blocks of posterisation completely destroy the ability to get full value from your 10 bit files so this is an in built limitation Sony has decided upon. It is obvious this is a built in limitation because although the FS7 is capable of much higher bitrates to record UHD/4K we cannot use those same higher bitrates to record HD/2K. These are not technical limitations but limitations imposed to segment the market and drive users towards RAW recording in the F5/F55 cameras.

I began looking at RAW-ProRes recording to overcome these compression issues but thanks to this thread I've knocked that idea on the head.

2yuaosm.png
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Wow. That is pretty terrible. Never seen it that bad before.
 
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