FS7: FS7 RAW woes & data distribution between: 12-bit RAW, 16-bit RAW, & 10-bit S-Log

Sony's choice to implement 16-bit RAW in one camera system and 12-bit RAW in another can be chalked up to a number of factors, but the point is that the company stated clearly that one was 16-bit and the other 12-bit. So clients can make a choice.

The question on how the RZW was implemented is another factor, and this is where I cannot go into details. Suffice to say that as Ben points out, it has been a long discussion process. Sitting at home you may think it should be as straightforward as "Hey, look at this" and the other guy says "Oh I see, let me look into that" but I can tell you that this is far from the reality.
 
What strikes me the most in this thread - and elsewhere, quite frankly... is that Sony "officially" has no one around to join in on the discussion. Even on their own "community site". This never makes me comfortable that "they've got my back" and are most interested in the folks who use/buy their products.
Mitch - as a fairly new member to these boards, I can tell you that I greatly appreciate your input / insight / knowledge and it is one of the main reason's I would buy one of CD's products. (the products obviously are great - the support is even better imo.) There are other vendors / mfg's who join in and are helpful as well. But it has become very apparent, after nearly a year of FS7 ownership, that Sony doesn't "get" it when "it" comes to customer service / response... and I truly love my FS7.
 
The best thing to do, or perhaps only thing is to go on the Sony community group and post about it there. Trust me if Sony is reading anything, it's the posts and feedback given there. Even if they don't necessarily comment on it.

There's a few threads there about "banding" but I would just start some new ones, asking if it will be addressed or not, etc..

Hopefully that will create some response.
 
markfpv said:
What strikes me the most in this thread - and elsewhere, quite frankly... is that Sony "officially" has no one around to join in on the discussion. Even on their own "community site". This never makes me comfortable that "they've got my back" and are most interested in the folks who use/buy their products.
Mitch - as a fairly new member to these boards, I can tell you that I greatly appreciate your input / insight / knowledge and it is one of the main reason's I would buy one of CD's products. (the products obviously are great - the support is even better imo.) There are other vendors / mfg's who join in and are helpful as well. But it has become very apparent, after nearly a year of FS7 ownership, that Sony doesn't "get" it when "it" comes to customer service / response... and I truly love my FS7.
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Mitch is a rock star to be fair. Long before I knew him to speak to on here I read his posts on Reduser when he was with Abelcine. Very knowledgeable, very friendly, and has the patience of a saint with grumpy people like myself :)
 
Agreed. I learned a lot from him too via AbelCine (and quite frankly miss his presence there). And I know it's sort of uncommon for smart, humble folks like himself to take the time to post on these forums. And I've valued your input as well here. Just strikes me how little I've learned from any actual Sony employee about how to use their products.
 
Thanks for the kind words.

One thing to remember about Sony. It is a Japanese company, with a particular culture. And the Sony forums are run by subsidiaries, like Sony US or Sony UK. That is not the same thing as Sony Japan. And even Sony Japan is an executive operation that oversees numerous product groups and factories, each with their own hierarchies and subcultures. This is what it means to be a great big multinational company. So while "someone from Sony" may indeed hear you, getting the messages filtered through the company is quite a process.

This is not to pick on Sony. The same is true for other large corporate entities. You wouldn't believe what it can be like dealing with some companies.
 
Hi there,

I'm looking at this thread very carefully but I keep wondering : ARRIRAW is also 12 bit, correct ? Then how come does it get the promised 14 stops dynamic range ?

I looked at ARRI's technical infos about it and it says that it is LOG encoded. How come ?

I thought RAW was only linear but if the output stream could somewhat be S-Log3 encoded it would solve the problem right ? Now, has the FS7 enough power to do it ? Is it even possible to do it or is it something really ARRI's specific ?

Also, I wonder HOW BMD is claiming 15 stops DR on the URSA mini 4.6K when their internal RAW recording is also 12 bits ? In regard of what everything has been written here, it looks quasi-impossible if one does not apply so kind of Log curve to it.

Cheers.
 
As mentioned a couple of times in the thread, Arri and Red apply a light curve to the signal before it hits the recorder in order to better distribute the information.

Re the Blackmagic camera if it is anything like the last ones then the claims will be outright bollocks, combined with some operational bugs that make it a non starter for higher end shoots.
 
Ben Scott said:
As mentioned a couple of times in the thread, Arri and Red apply a light curve to the signal before it hits the recorder in order to better distribute the information.

Re the Blackmagic camera if it is anything like the last ones then the claims will be outright bollocks, combined with some operational bugs that make it a non starter for higher end shoots.
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I am always deeply cynical about BM, but to be fair their 4.6K will actually be a second/third generation camera.
 
Ben Scott said:
And as soon as they make one fit for purpose I will be the first to applaud them.
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BM are on a similar journey to RED. I saw plenty of examples where RED's were hired in pairs due to reliability and heating issues.

I was interested in buying a RED, I went on their forum and asked a few questions and was hit by a barrage of loonies. I never bought a RED and never went back to the forum. At least BM seem to be doing well and avoiding the lunatic fringe element of the aspirational filmmaker on a budget market.
 
After rationally testing the BMC4k, concluding that it was 200ISO 8-9 stops I found it to be an excellent, enjoyable and honest camera and shot a feature on it - my F3 looked blurred in side by side comparison (with 10bit recorder) and with no reliable luts for Slog1 the colour was wonky - the BMCfilm just popped with a bm lut presenting an easy workflow.

The BMC was reliable (for months) simple, no gotchas in the menu, no forgotten settings, no dropped frames, no random change of shutter angle, no real world moire, and audio at every frame rate, all frame rates offering equal quality. The camera was just a fully functioning chip in box with a lens mount.

Incidentally during testing I found the neck shadows in BMC raw to be 'strange' and elected to shoot proRes :)

Ive been on set with the Ursula and from a casual observation that seemed excellent too (hfr and sound, easy menues) apart from the small gotcha of weighing more than a pile of house bricks and having no ND. I was shooting FS7 that day and the settings got so wonky I had to waste 20mins doing an all reset and rebuilding my settings.

S
 
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I think BM is getting close, but the real issue that needs to be addressed in the 4.6K version is Fixed Pattern Noise.
Until they do this, it's a non-starter.
 
The bmc4k had fixed pattern noise according to all the internet muppets (including Pbloom) who put it on 1600, ran out into a dark street, shot so only the bottom 30% of the histo was filled then cranked the image in post.

Those who rationally tested before shooting a real job never had any FPN.

S
 
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Nirv said:
BM are on a similar journey to RED. I saw plenty of examples where RED's were hired in pairs due to reliability and heating issues.

I was interested in buying a RED, I went on their forum and asked a few questions and was hit by a barrage of loonies. I never bought a RED and never went back to the forum. At least BM seem to be doing well and avoiding the lunatic fringe element of the aspirational filmmaker on a budget market.
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Red's first camera was used to shoot plenty of big movies.

What's the list of BM camera movies where it was used as something other than a crash cam or POV cam? Heating issues with Reds are something from 4-5 years ago and even then it didn't stop people shooting theatrically released movies on them.

They do not even vaguely operate in the same sphere as Blackmagic - no matter what the on-paper specs of a BM camera might say.

However, if I am completely honest I don't think you should be looking at red if you are in the, as you put it 'aspirational filmmaker on a budget market'. The price of acquisition and the price of editing etc put even the cheaper Red offerings in the tier above that.

It's like seeing someone who has been playing guitar for a year be given a Gibson Les Paul Standard. If you have a particular project that requires it then that's what the cheap over saturated rentals market is there for, but the cost of ownership is never less than 'substantial'. My full Red Scarlet kit was in the end something in the region of 20,000 worht of gear. I imagine my Raven kit will be the same.


As for Reduser, there is an amazing group of people on there giving fantastic help and advice to all levels of knowledge and experience, but there's also a lunatic fringe who treat owning a camera like supporting a football team and just because they shout loudest people think that is representative. When you start looking at some of the talent that frequents those forums it is incredible sometimes, the access to knowledge. I've found there are just as many loonies on DVXUser to be honest :)

Oh, and Blackmagic lunatics who have never shot on anything other than those and DSLRs repeatedly screaming about how it gets results as good as an Arri or Red make my brain hurt.
 
I wasn't suggesting he was. Replace 'you' with 'one'.

The reduser forummers I find hardest to deal with are the 'all the gear and no idea' people who got bought all the kit by someone else and now tell everyone what to do. The subject could be anything - Nvidia vs AMD nerds etc they just want to scream and shout... There was an 18 year old who owned a Dragon who was insufferable. He wasn't even allowed to drink yet!
 
I think when I get my RED camera next year, I'm going to have to start my own forum.

No way I'm stepping foot in there, I will be scolded like a school boy for merely having an opinion. :shocked:
 
Frankly, I think as soon as you consider investing the money in a RED Weapon system, you should be asking whether or not to go Arri instead.
From an investment point of view it makes more sense, as the latter hold their value far longer and are always out working.
Red owner operators on the other hand are often doing firesales in order to recoup the cost of their systems. This is a dangerous situation.

The Reduser site has a lot of great info, but the gung ho, us against the world, (you go dude!) crap, it just too hard to swallow.
 
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