FS7: Fs7 cine_ei

Of course i agree.

For me 800EI seems to be the gold standard if there's enough light so far.
Loosing 1 1/3 stops of highlight dynamic is still okay with this camera.

Very often I was shooting ISO1600 and ISO3200 with my FS100, Which I liked
very much for what it was. We'll see how I use the FS7 in those situations soon.
 
Indeed.

Now that brings me on to a seperate but related subject - shooting in the dark.

Ive always thought that Sony cameras used some form of anlalogue gain when gain was engaged (in contrast to Red - which just modifies the LUT but not the core file when the 'ISO' is changed)

We 'know' that Slog does not employ in camera gain as 6400EI is just a thin file.

Would Custom mode have a different approach to shooting in the 3200+ region and actually burn in some form of gain I wonder??

S
 
I'm just trying to understand Cine EI between Alister's article and a few of these threads. Is Cine EI really only recommended in exterior or heavily lit setups? It seems like no one pushes it past 3200 ISO which obviously wouldn't be useful for doc work since one often needs a lot more gain. Am I misunderstanding it altogether? Some seem to say you can push it in post, but it's not RAW so you can't drastically underexpose and expect to pull the light back- so is there a definitive time to use Cine EI vs S-log 3 w/ higher ISOs?
 
truelife said:
I'm just trying to understand Cine EI between Alister's article and a few of these threads. Is Cine EI really only recommended in exterior or heavily lit setups? It seems like no one pushes it past 3200 ISO which obviously wouldn't be useful for doc work since one often needs a lot more gain. Am I misunderstanding it altogether? Some seem to say you can push it in post, but it's not RAW so you can't drastically underexpose and expect to pull the light back- so is there a definitive time to use Cine EI vs S-log 3 w/ higher ISOs?
Click to expand...

CineEI is just a way of viewing Slog+Lut - to give a good impression what your shots might look like after post.

You can dial CineEI up beyond 3200 - but the resulting Slog files are very thin and noisy.

The question that needs to be posed is..

Does Custom mode introduce some form of analogue gain (and NR etc) at high ISOs and if so does this out perform 'thin' Slog?

Analogue gain would be like using a raw stills camera I guess - for example if I shoot my Nikon D3 still camera at 3200 the file is much cleaner than if I had shot 200 and then yanked it up in post.

I know nothing about cameras but Im thinking they are made thus..
1) chip - gives out raw data
2) image processor, adds gain, lens correction, Colour balance etc.
3) compression - makes the file.

I think Slog avoids step 2

Old cameras like Red (bmc etc) dont have step 2 which is why you can go from any ISO to any other ISO - ISO in red cameras (and im guessing Slog) is just (a marker for) digital gain in the file meta data


S
 
CineEI always records the file at 2000 ISO, regardless of what EI level you are set at for monitoring. Like Sam's point, you're basically opting to not boost the signal in-camera before recording to the card. You're just doing it in the computer instead. It would be interesting to test out (maybe with the FS700 capturing ProRes on the 7Q) in-camera ISO boost vs. lifting a 2000 ISO file in post.
 
morgan_moore said:
The question that needs to be posed is..

Does Custom mode introduce some form of analogue gain (and NR etc) at high ISOs and if so does this out perform 'thin' Slog?

Analogue gain would be like using a raw stills camera I guess - for example if I shoot my Nikon D3 still camera at 3200 the file is much cleaner than if I had shot 200 and then yanked it up in post.

I know nothing about cameras but Im thinking they are made thus..
1) chip - gives out raw data
2) image processor, adds gain, lens correction, Colour balance etc.
3) compression - makes the file.

I think Slog avoids step 2

Old cameras like Red (bmc etc) dont have step 2 which is why you can go from any ISO to any other ISO - ISO in red cameras (and im guessing Slog) is just (a marker for) digital gain in the file meta data
Click to expand...

Basically you're correct. That is a question I'm planning to test as well. Would you rather do the gain and noise reduction in post (after compression) or in the camera where you have noise reduction also. (Not to mention, waveform, zebras, white balance etc.)
Only testing would give an accurate answer, but my guess is - in the camera - because the signal hasn't been compressed yet - (is it 16 bit at that point?). Noise reduction is a PITA in post - an extra step that can be very slow. it may depend on your DR also. Presumably you don't need 14 steps in most cases and a custom file will distribute your important information over the whole exposure thus giving a more bits per stop - or a "thicker negative" to use a film analogy.

To some extent this is an issue any time you don't need all 14 stops. I just spent some time talking to San Francisco's top video tech and he felt that Hypergammas (at least on the F5/55) looked great and there wasn't a need to go to SLog3 unless you needed the freedom in post or the DR. One advantage of course is then the DP could control his look instead of handing it to someone who may have no idea what was intended. So is Slog3 always better…? Depends on the circumstances.

Re RED (is that an "old " camera to you whippersnappers already?). The exposure is decided equally between every stop which ,may be one reason its easier for them to let you have such a wide range of ISO's & Kelvins available. In Log, recording is unequal and a few stops over center and it starts to compress. However Log and RED are the same in that your ISO's are just for viewing or metadata. Recording is always at the native ISO. Of course RED's native ISO is way slower than Sony's.

Watch out Morgan, once you start shooting in Custom you might never come back! What if you really start to like having control of your look? You might even end up like one of us old doddering slow DP's out there :-)

Lenny
 
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The Red Ive used is like my 2005 hasselblad - it records one file - no amplifier - ISO/CB just adjusts the LUT and add metadata - any action in the camera is non destructive/not burned in.

Ive always 'felt' that gain (on my EX1) was real gain burned in straight after the image capture

I do not feel SLog is 'the way' above maybe 3200.

As for NR - generally I feel scene lighting/exposure should make it not required, but being december ive got a few things (festive events) that will need max sensitivity - an emergency measure in my book.

As for DPs 'burning in' - well that is a long chat - many reasons not to IMO.

S
 
morgan_moore said:
I do not feel SLog is 'the way' above maybe 3200.

As for NR - generally I feel scene lighting/exposure should make it not required, but being december ive got a few things (festive events) that will need max sensitivity - an emergency measure in my book.
Click to expand...

Yes its only needed at high ISO's - even 3200 is worth testing. Probably not at 2000 which is why that's the native ISO according to SONY.
 
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