FS7: FS7 B-cam dilemma and lens adapting question for you all...

[markfpv]

Mark I think a used FS7 is a think to take seriously. Maybe not Dougs shiney one with all the bits but there are ones around 4k

Mirrorless suck bigstyle with the poor ergonomics and lack of ND.

Certainly - another FS7 should be on the radar for Jason's purchase. And I don't disagree that mirrorless can "suck bigstyle". (also can't believe you & Doug are on opposite sides - but then would have never thought Doug would be happy without internal ND)

I'm an "old-school" shooter myself, and have always preferred the ENG style shoulder mount, balanced camcorder to the palm-corder, DSLR, etc. But this old dog has learned a few new tricks. The original post from Jason talked about "8 hours running around" and not keen on the size & weight. And because of that same scenario, I have thrown my Sony 18-110, etc on my little a6300 for a day or two of fast-paced (and extremely down & dirty) shooting. And the client did not see a difference between the shots I got with it (using scene file I created on it) and shooting log on my FS7. They cut together very nicely - and I got many shots I wouldn't have with a bigger rig. It's not for every shoot certainly - but for very little $ - adds to the package. And the newer, better AF is certainly impressive.... and I personally would prefer great AF for my stills / gimbal cam then my FS7, FX9 (or A cam) in general.

 

[Doug Jensen]

I'm an "old-school" shooter myself, and have always preferred the ENG style shoulder mount, balanced camcorder

Absolutely. I still think there's a good chance I'll end up selling all my cinema cameras and PL lenses and keep my S1H for interviews and a PXW-Z750 for everything else. To me, that would be a nearly perfect scenario . . . but expensive.

 

[captslomo]

Doug: would the S1H work well as a gimbal camera? I've got a run & gun sports series coming up where the marching orders require one. The F55 is probably NOT
my best choice. And by "gimbal" I'm thinking one of the handheld stick kind, not a frame and giant backpack with arms to hang it from.

 

[Clermond]

Doug: would the SR1H work well as a gimbal camera? I've got a run & gun sports series coming up where the marching orders require one. The F55 is probably NOT
my best choice. And by "gimbal" I'm thinking one of the handheld stick kind, not a frame and giant backpack with arms to hang it from.

my experience with the S1: You will need the Ronin S or the Crane3. Depending on the lenses it can become quite heavy. Focussing is an issue. AF doesn't work reliably and focussing with a wireless system like the Nucleus nano is tricky. You need both hands for carrying the system and one for the focus wheel. I either use the GH5 on a smaller gimbal or the Ronin 1 with a ReadyRig. YMMV

 

[Doug Jensen]

Doug: would the S1H work well as a gimbal camera? I've got a run & gun sports series coming up where the marching orders require one. The F55 is probably NOT
my best choice. And by "gimbal" I'm thinking one of the handheld stick kind, not a frame and giant backpack with arms to hang it from.

Well, I don't own a gimbal and I have never used a gimbal so I am not in a position to answer that question. Therefore I will defer to the advice of people who actually have an informed opinion.

 

[captslomo]

You're new to this whole internet thing, aren't you? EVERYBODY has an opinion. (sometimes whether you really want it or not)

Let me put it this way: if you had to walk around using only autofocus on the S1H with a wide angle lens, would you be very sad at the results?

 

[Doug Jensen]

Now, that is a loaded question. AF on the S1H sucks, so that might be the answer you are looking for right there. But I will elaborate. Personally, I wouldn't care to use a gimbal even if AF did work because that is not my style of shooting and I would resist it. But if I was forced to at gun point, I'd use a very wide angle lens, a small f-stop, focus about 8' away, and hope like hell that the DoF would be deep enough to cover my ass.

PS. The thought has occurred to me several times to mount my Hero8 on the hotshoe of the S1H and see it can capture a second angle. One of these days I'm going to do it. My Z90 on top of my F55 for rocket launches has worked out great. Two shots for the price of one. It makes me want to do more of that sort of thing.

 

[OnSet]

Doug: would the S1H work well as a gimbal camera? I've got a run & gun sports series coming up where the marching orders require one. The F55 is probably NOT
my best choice. And by "gimbal" I'm thinking one of the handheld stick kind, not a frame and giant backpack with arms to hang it from.

In my case I bought a GH5s to go with my Ronin-S. The camera interfaces well with the Ronin-S (meaning that I can usb cable from the camera to the gimbal, allowing me to manually focus MFT or Canon mount lenses with a Viltrox adapter using the focus knob on the side of the Ronin-S). Since the GH5s is MFT it gives you a bit more DOF to play with, and in many cases I can forego the manual focus and let AF do the work.

Although I had originally bought the GH5s to go along with my EVA1, I've done quite a few jobs for producers who had FS7's and have been happy with the way they intercut after a little tweaking. The only complaint I've gotten was that sometimes the GH5s skintones were nicer than the FS7's - and they needed to adjust them so they didn't look so good.

If using something like the Ronin-S I highly recommend getting one of the 3rd party attachments that allows you to mount a monitor and provides a way to hold the rig with your second hand as well. When I first got the rig I thought I'd be using it mainly for quick takes, but as it worked out (and based on what my directors ask for) I'd say my average take with it is 10-15 minutes, and having that extra holding point really helps!

 

[morgan_moore]

Ive been think about this and think a good answer is only possible by interogating the question more deeply - there are different answers for more nuanced questions.

For example the fully built fs7 is not good for 8 hours (I dont disagree). Well then strip it down?

For my zambia trip I used with a side handle and the 18-260 only - yes we lost some shots to focus and had an easier life and gained some other shots due to ability to jump out of the car and shoot straight away and I was less knackered and more mobile.

Right an actual b camera...

Recents for me have been
- GH5s on a jib, interior commercial. Great image = or better tha FS7. But no ND or mics or AF.
-Caravan show at NEC Nikon Z6 Broll. Sharp 8bit image - good enough for the client - mic didnt matter, was indoors no ND needed af was great (70-200)
-Yep we use the Z90 as b too on occasion, its all awesome but DOF is pretty deep (and lowlight poor?). Its great in a non scripted live bundle event in the daytime.
-Ive been involved in the BMC 4k for a load of 'cinematic' (zeiss 50 1.4) car mounting.. (external audio) beatiful night footage.. ergonomic hell in basically any other situation.

So there are three B cams of mirrorless nature working a treat.

But as soon as you go outside you need to flick in ND*, need XLR audio**, need a 10bit gradeable log or feel you deserve trustable AF there is no one camera that does it all that I know of???

The thing about the FS7 is it is OK for shows at the NEC Broll, sticking on a jib or car on a high end commercial, or going into an unscripted bundle indoors or out stripped with the 18-260 kit.

And of course it works with MK zooms.

--

* given time you can of course faff with ND
** given time you can of course faff with dual sound

 

[morgan_moore]

THis could be it???

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/wild-rumor-possible-sony-pxw-fx6-specs/

 

[cyvideo]

But if I was forced to at gun point, I'd use a very wide angle lens, a small f-stop, focus about 8' away, and hope like hell that the DoF would be deep enough to cover my ass.

Geez! LOL! That makes laugh. Bringing back memories. 100 yrs ago, well seems like it, I started in this crazy imaging business as a stills clicker. Leica M2 and M3 kit. I did a spell with the Daily Mirror in London and other shooters in the news room said to me "When you are stuck in a mad elbow to elbow press scrum do this Chris. Stick with the Ilford FP3 at 125ASA, use your 35mm lens, set your focus to 8 foot, set your aperture to f8.0 and adjust shutter speed as required." Sure enough most everything was covered from around 3' to ∞. A few of the clickers had sticky tape around their 35mm lenses to stop iris and focus from moving. Thanks for the memory prompt Doug

Chris Young

 

[captslomo]

Thanks, Doug. I hope a good cold beer at the end of the day can wash away the distasteful rumination I made you perform. :beer:

Your scenario is about what I was planning--wide angle, super fast lens to get a little bokeh, either AF & pray or set focus and zoom with the feet. Unfortunately, this is for my biggest client, and they've got a fairly specific shooting plan that I have to make work. Somehow. In and out of cars, walking down the street, interacting with folks on the fly, everything run and gun and floating...but "cinematic." It's a tall order.

I have used the mounted GoPro on the hot shoe/tripod leg a number of times. Works well in tight situations.

 

[Clermond]

Your scenario is about what I was planning--wide angle, super fast lens to get a little bokeh, either AF & pray or set focus and zoom with the feet. Unfortunately, this is for my biggest client, and they've got a fairly specific shooting plan that I have to make work. Somehow. In and out of cars, walking down the street, interacting with folks on the fly, everything run and gun and floating...but "cinematic." It's a tall order.

I have used the mounted GoPro on the hot shoe/tripod leg a number of times. Works well in tight situations.

sounds like a GH5/GH5s to me
10bit 422 and light enough to be mounted on a suction cup inside vehicles. We do that very often. Fits well on a small gimbal but you can also rig it with a lot of add ons. It has even the option for 2 XLR audio in

 

[captslomo]

yep. That's currently the front runner in the auditions for The Camera Capades. What lenses do you use for video?

 

[Clermond]

yep. That's currently the front runner in the auditions for The Camera Capades. What lenses do you use for video?

Panasonic
7-14 with special 4x4 filter holder, the inside car lens
12-35/2.8 my go-to gimbal lens
Leica 12-60 as allrounder
Canon FD 20 / 24 / 28 /35 / 50 / 85 / 135 (also with speedbooster)

 

[patrickbaldwin]

"A few of the clickers had sticky tape around their 35mm lenses to stop iris and focus from moving"

I saw a doc about paparazzi photographers some of whom had done exactly this.

 

[cyvideo]

"A few of the clickers had sticky tape around their 35mm lenses to stop iris and focus from moving"

I saw a doc about paparazzi photographers some of whom had done exactly this.

So the practice still continues, makes me smile a little. Yes well I guess on that note I was a "Pap" back then.

Curious, what was the name of the doc if you can remember?

Chris Young

 

[NorBro]

Before 2016-ish when AF cameras started to get good, everyone did this while using steadicams/gimbals if you didn't have a puller.

It's still common today; you see it on YouTube all the time during simple, solo MF camera tests (Blackmagic, RED, etc). Some gimbals now allow the operator to try and control focus with a thumb wheel, but that's just a mess vs. a machine/software doing it.

 

[patrickbaldwin]

So the practice still continues, makes me smile a little. Yes well I guess on that note I was a "Pap" back then.

Curious, what was the name of the doc if you can remember?

Chris Young

I'm afraid I can't. It was a while ago but certainly a British TV production and I think BBC. There was a bit where one pap was saying how he made £8000 selling an image of Joan Collins crossing the street with a carrier bag of shopping so that will tell you how old it might be!
I would love to see it again although not the bit of the pap in his car pissing into his coffee cup......

 

[Joshua Milligan]

Personally, I have always ran some sort of Sony A7-series camera and still do as a B-cam to my FS7. I currently have an FS7II and am running it with an A7RIII and A7III. I don't tend to sweat the lack of 8-bit on these little Sony mirrorless cameras as I find that a properly exposed 8-bit XAVC-S file when shooting in Slog2 / S-Gamut3.Cine matches very well with the FS7 in Slog3 / S-Gamut3.Cine. I haven't had any issues with the Alpha cameras' files breaking while grading despite being 8-bit.

Do I wish these cameras were 10-bit with higher bitrates? Of course I do. That's long overdue in my opinion at this point. But even at 8-bit they hold up very well in Slog2 and because their color science is somewhat similar to the FS7, matching them in post couldn't be easier. Add the fact that their stills performance is top of the line, as is their autofocus performance, and there's very little reason to not go that route in my opinion, especially if you're working with a larger Sony video camera such as the FS7.

I have been down the road of matching multiple brands of cameras before and ultimately decided that I didn't want to spend my time doing that anymore. I have a business to run, so time is money. I'd much rather have an 8-bit camera with great stills performance and usable autofocus that easily matches my FS7II than I would have to mess around with matching multiple brands of color just to get 10-bit access with the B-cam. That's my opinion.