FS100: Petition to Sony
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Steve Castle
Well-known member
It ain't happening...and for a good reason.
The fact that the camera is testing right now means it'll be a significantly longer wait then 3 months, and it would require more than just the front barrel to be redesigned unless you want just the front part to be jutting up. It would look like the AF100 or F3.
Building a camera isn't about building a single device, its building tens of thousands, its about managing supply chains, testing, its about brining it to the retailer, and then to the consumer. And its not just a single piece of plastic we are talking about here. A camera body is mostly a metal alloy chassis (usually magnesium) below it. Production is already likely ramping up being the imminent release and the fact that its already in the hands of many folks. Major physical changes aren't going to happen.
Also this camera is obviously designed around the dSLR lenses, and unlike the F3 with a PL mount, Sony is targeting people that will mount Nikons F mounts, Canons EF mounts, and E/A mounts to this camera. And there are plenty of options for ND filters on those lenses, and users that are used to dealing without an internalized ND filter wheel in their cameras.
Can't live without an internal ND filter wheel? Buy an F3. Can't afford it? Buy an AF100 (its out now and a great camera). Every camera doesn't need to overlap each other in every single little feature set. Nor is every camera designed to meet the every wants and whims of every user. Fortunately for you, there are a lot of good options right now for large sensored cameras.
OR. As someone has suggested before, someone could merely make an adapter with a ND filter wheel built in. The fact that the E-mount has an insanely short FFD of just 18mms, means there is ample room to incorporate a filter wheel adapter to SLR lenses. Furthermore the wheel is entirely mechanical. That would be the simplest route.
Also: the BBC is talking out of their ass about pixel count of the F3. He's basing it on the SNR of a 5 micron 3cmos sensor in relative terms of 0db. The first flaw is that SNR doesn't correlate where you can use it to measure sensors pixel pitch, secondly, 0db is ISO800 on the F3 different from a 3cmos camera, thirdly, there is greater flaw comparing a bayer to a 3CMOS in terms and using it to determine pixel density (and easier route would be to look at the damn brochure).
starcentral
Veteran
Dear Sony,
If the ND filters are too much trouble we totally understand, if you could make the camera 4k instead that would alternatively be accepted.
hahaha
Can you explain why you need both? I would just buy in the country you predominantly shoot in, and nowadays it is a breeze to drop one format onto a timeline of another format and only need to adjust the audio speed by +-4%
PAL/NTSC use to be a bigger issue in the land of SD because the resolutions were actually different but that's old news now........ .
If the ND filters are too much trouble we totally understand, if you could make the camera 4k instead that would alternatively be accepted.
hahaha
Can you explain why you need both? I would just buy in the country you predominantly shoot in, and nowadays it is a breeze to drop one format onto a timeline of another format and only need to adjust the audio speed by +-4%
PAL/NTSC use to be a bigger issue in the land of SD because the resolutions were actually different but that's old news now........ .
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I shoot alot of music videos in both regions.... light flicker is a problem (if using 180 degree shutter). Bands wont allow their audio to be slowed/speedened. I work roughly 60%/40% in 25p/24p, no way will i buy this camera if they dont fix the issue.
Brian_Rice
Carbonite Member
I think an internal wheel on this camera is just yet another thing that people want to add on to something that's sitting in a specific niche price range. If you want to use something that is a DSLR video camera, this is that camera. That is literally who it was designed for. If you're looking for something else you probably need to look elsewhere. This, IMO, is for the people shooting on consumer cams with adapters or DSLRs. Someone with a prosumer cam + adapter probably wouldn't benefit much from this cam. They'd probably be happier with something more expensive, or the AF100.
Spec-wise, this is absolutely by a landslide my favorite affordable cam to come out yet and I have full plans to purchase one. We'll see what happens when it's actually released.
Spec-wise, this is absolutely by a landslide my favorite affordable cam to come out yet and I have full plans to purchase one. We'll see what happens when it's actually released.
Alternatively...
Alternatively...
Or if it's simply too difficult to add a physical ND wheel, how about firmware that lets us switch the IRIS wheel to control GAIN, and then adding negative GAIN settings to our options? -3db would knock the ASA down to 400, -6db down to 200, etc. I'm sure there are sensor limitations that would be involved at some point, because a clipped highlight at the sensor would stay just that. But I think a 4-stop or even a 3-stop negative gain control would let me follow someone from inside a building to outside, or from inside a car to out with some degree of a reasonable exposure BEFORE I even have 30 seconds free to throw on an ND filter.
Dumb idea?
Alternatively...
Or if it's simply too difficult to add a physical ND wheel, how about firmware that lets us switch the IRIS wheel to control GAIN, and then adding negative GAIN settings to our options? -3db would knock the ASA down to 400, -6db down to 200, etc. I'm sure there are sensor limitations that would be involved at some point, because a clipped highlight at the sensor would stay just that. But I think a 4-stop or even a 3-stop negative gain control would let me follow someone from inside a building to outside, or from inside a car to out with some degree of a reasonable exposure BEFORE I even have 30 seconds free to throw on an ND filter.
Dumb idea?
G
G.P.
Guest
I'll most likely get chewed out right now but... really? redesign a whole camera after half a year or development for something most people already own in their camera bag? I'm sorry but if you can't buy an ND filter for your $5,000 camera, then you might wanna rethink why you're spending 5k in the first place... Are they needed to shoot, yes, do you need it to be built into the camera? No, and furthermore, the physical size of the camera couldn't fit any kind of filter wheels at all, let alone much else. It was made to be SMALL thats the whole point.
I just think its rather silly... I come from the days when there was film, you wanted ND, you had to put it on the front, I think its just being spoiled to think every camera should have it built in. If anything it makes it more like a real cinema camera, theres no built in ND you need it, you have to slap it on front. Just because it doesn't have it, doesnt mean its a bad thing. It could end up teaching you how to expose by changing your ND's other than just using the same 2 settings you always having in camera.
I just think its rather silly... I come from the days when there was film, you wanted ND, you had to put it on the front, I think its just being spoiled to think every camera should have it built in. If anything it makes it more like a real cinema camera, theres no built in ND you need it, you have to slap it on front. Just because it doesn't have it, doesnt mean its a bad thing. It could end up teaching you how to expose by changing your ND's other than just using the same 2 settings you always having in camera.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Well, I'm a vidoegrapher NOT a still photographer and I certainly do not have
ND filters in my bag. I don't see what is wrong with letting Sony know
that you would like ND filters. I don't think it should sink to a hugely
low level of whining or anything, but letting them know what features you would
like on a future version is how they introduce upgrades......like the EX1R for
example. Saying that people should 'just not buy it' or they
'should already have ND filters' might be valid if people are actually saying
the entire camera should be scrapped. I'm not saying that, I'm saying in the
future, you might want to put ND filters in a camera of this type. But if you
don't, that's ok, I just won't spend my money with you, that's all.
Complaining > Bad. Simple feedback/requests > Good. This is my opinion only
of course.
ND filters in my bag. I don't see what is wrong with letting Sony know
that you would like ND filters. I don't think it should sink to a hugely
low level of whining or anything, but letting them know what features you would
like on a future version is how they introduce upgrades......like the EX1R for
example. Saying that people should 'just not buy it' or they
'should already have ND filters' might be valid if people are actually saying
the entire camera should be scrapped. I'm not saying that, I'm saying in the
future, you might want to put ND filters in a camera of this type. But if you
don't, that's ok, I just won't spend my money with you, that's all.
Complaining > Bad. Simple feedback/requests > Good. This is my opinion only
of course.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
While I think they should have included ND filters and that they should have worked harder to make it work, it wouldn't keep me from buying one. I used ND with my 7D and it wasn't horrible. Sure, NO WHERE near as nice as dialing in on the AF100. But then again, the F3 only has 2 ND settings (other than clear) whereas the AF100 has 3.
My hope is that someone like Birger will eventually design a mount to add ND. Given I heard they are building an electronic mount for EOS->Emount, that is just awesome.
I also agree that they are probably too far in their manufacturing to change anything now for this model. It will most likely be the next model if they consider it.
My hope is that someone like Birger will eventually design a mount to add ND. Given I heard they are building an electronic mount for EOS->Emount, that is just awesome.
I also agree that they are probably too far in their manufacturing to change anything now for this model. It will most likely be the next model if they consider it.
The thing I don't get is people saying that the sole reason they wouldn't buy this camera (or any camera, doesn't necessarily have to be the FS100) is because it lacks internal ND filters. Really? I could understand if it was something major like the resolution isn't good enough, or you just hate the codec, or the dynamic range wasn't up to par, or there are major moire and aliasing issues, etc. I can even understand the lack of HD-SDI being a game stopper. But for something that's easily fixed with a $50 adjustable ND filter? (or a mattebox with drop in filters if you really want to get crazy). I said it earlier, but if it came between small size and internal ND filters, I'd choose small size every time.
To each their own, I guess.
To each their own, I guess.
Jeff Nitzberg
Active member
Here it is for those who want one...
This is obviously fake... but there is no reason why sony or a third party company couldn't manufacture one. There is enough clearance in the EOS to nex mount to add a rotating rear filter. Hell... it would even be possible for a company to make a mount adapter that simply had a slot that allowed for some kind of drop in style filters... this has even been done on some wide lenses (built into the lens itself). Anyhow, not putting ND on the FS was clearly a deliberate decision on Sony's behalf.
So don't petition Sony, petition cokin or tiffen or redrock or ciecio7 to make an adapter like this... and then make it for m4/3rds cameras as well... GH1/2 owners eat your heart out.
This is obviously fake... but there is no reason why sony or a third party company couldn't manufacture one. There is enough clearance in the EOS to nex mount to add a rotating rear filter. Hell... it would even be possible for a company to make a mount adapter that simply had a slot that allowed for some kind of drop in style filters... this has even been done on some wide lenses (built into the lens itself). Anyhow, not putting ND on the FS was clearly a deliberate decision on Sony's behalf.
So don't petition Sony, petition cokin or tiffen or redrock or ciecio7 to make an adapter like this... and then make it for m4/3rds cameras as well... GH1/2 owners eat your heart out.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Well if the codec isn't good enough, you can always
add a Nanoflash or Ki Pro mini or Ninja or whatever and
even if it doesn't have HD-SDI, it has HDMI 'with timecode'....
so why should those be a problem either? The ND filter thing,
is an issue, because trying to put in a mattebox and buy slide in
filters isn't for everyone. Then you have the fact that with many
lenses, the lens extends which won't work with the mattebox.
As for adjustable ND 'fader' filters, Barry and others have said
they pretty much suck. Size on the other hand, doesn't bother me
and others.....I am used to working with big crazy shoulder
mount cameras, so any of these type of camcorders seems small
to me.
With this camera, as with many things in life, the things that
are important to some people are not as important to others.
That doesn't mean anything other than there are a LOT of people
from different backgrounds (stills, traditional video, film, and
combinations of all) that are looking at this camera. One man's
trash is another's treasure and all that. No biggie, it doesn't
have ND filters. There is a certain segment of people that
want them, others that don't. Sony will either include them
with a future revision, or not. I've stated my preference, and
they can listen or not, while I would like to buy a F3, I can't
afford it yet. But the camera won't make or break me, I can continue
to get by with old gear for awhile yet.
Af100 day, FS100 night, Nikon mounts so they play nice together, still less than an f3. If you can only have one pick your compromise. If you're poor and go dslr, you'll have to have ND filters so moving up should be a non issue. The solution to tromboning zooms is a drop-in filter holder that screws to the front of the lens. the cokin system has gotten big enough for most still lenses. A similar solution for 4x4 filters with a nice sun shade on the front would be cool. what is good about this design is you only need to get the adapter for your various lenses and it slides on and off easily.
Ya that true we all people are Indie film makers,we cant afford real film stock,and even Sony F3 also,what we do just shoot in HD and transfer to film,so we need 24p please help...............other wise we have to do in Canon 5d m2 with Nikon ai lenses from Ebay,that is only way now ..........what to do?Sony help us.............we r happy
Ya,that is true,u see Panasonic have a vision, they make AF100 is a Universal camcorder with Cine mode,that is great effort ............if Sony listening us that is great............................last time Canon don't bother about 24p in 5DM2 then whole world make noise about 24p then only they decide 24p in 5DM2..................now all Indie makers using 5DM2..................thanks
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
transfer to film - why ?
in 2 years from now there will be no theaters which show film and i guess you will not make it before ,
the stupid thing is that people still think 24 or 25 , the projector doesn't care
That is a little premature, and I for one certainly hope there are still theaters showing film in 2 years, and in 20 years and beyond. Digital cinema still has a long way to go to beat the beauty of well photographed film. However, back to the the thread. Good luck on getting Sony to listen to you for the release of the FS100. I wish that it did have in internal ND system, but that is not a deal breaker for me. What is going to be the deal breaker, for me, is the image quality we see coming out of the production models. What I think we are going to see is the FS100 hit the street at about $5K, and in about a year, move to a street price of $4500.00, then Sony will announce a new camera, at about $7K to $8K MSRP, that has more of the bells and whistles we are clamoring for now, but still is not up to the full functionality of the F3.
In some places in Asia if u want satellite royalty right u should sale your film negative right,then only they consider Motion picture,otherwise your film is only Video film,the price is very low,for projection doesn't matter there have Digitel projection,onother one thing about 24p and 25p,24p motion is very filimic look,25p is more video look,transfer to film - why ?
in 2 years from now there will be no theaters which show film and i guess you will not make it before ,
the stupid thing is that people still think 24 or 25 , the projector doesn't care
http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/index.cfm?articleId=3213230
http://prolost.com/blog/2011/4/4/movies-at-high-frame-rates.html
if you want Motion picture entry u should do in film ,otherwise your film is video film,..........thanks,...................there have lot of talk about 24p and 25p,anyway film is film video is video.....still I love film........thanks
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+1..........well said