FS-100 Post Workflow (60p) problems

Thomas Worth said:
The 30p method, as you mention, is the most common (i.e. quick-and-dirty) method but it also throws away half of the temporal picture. The equivalent to this would be taking a 30 fps video and making it 15 fps.

60i video, just like 60p, holds 60 discreet images per second. The only difference between 60i and 60p is that 60i stores these images as fields at half the vertical resolution, whereas 60p stores them as full frames.



You only need one field to create a full frame. So, you actually create TWO progressive frames from each interlaced frame. Since 60i is 30 "frames" per second, and you are splitting each "frame" into two new frames, you have 60 images per second, or 60p (at half-res, of course).

Keep in mind interlaced video is commonly referred to as "30 frames per second," but this is not accurate. There is no such thing as "frames" in interlaced video, only fields. A better way to describe the video is to say "60i." Example:

60i = 60 images per second, stored as fields (i)
60p = 60 images per second, stores as frames (p)

That's why we can get slow motion from 30 frame interlaced video. There are actually 60 images per second.
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Grated, 60p at half resolution isn't exactly usable for HD, with SD it kinda works but when it comes to HD, 60i is not comparable and no one ever uses it, i think thats really the only point i was trying to make. I know how the process works to make 60i to 60p but again, no one does it because it looks terrible. 60i plays at the same speed as 30fps which is why its refered to that and for any online video (or 720p broadcast) this 60i is turned into 30p or 24p by combining the fields, aka de-interlacing.
 
eheath said:
Grated, 60p at half resolution isn't exactly usable for HD, with SD it kinda works but when it comes to HD, 60i is not comparable and no one ever uses it, i think thats really the only point i was trying to make. I know how the process works to make 60i to 60p but again, no one does it because it looks terrible.
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I wouldn't say "no one ever uses it," although I agree there are better alternatives. However, if this was the only camera you had and you wanted to do some decent-looking slow motion (temporally speaking), then it would be helpful to understand all of this. And I also wouldn't say it "looks terrible." I've done plenty of slow motion with interlaced cameras and have had very good results.

60i plays at the same speed as 30fps which is why its refered to that and for any online video (or 720p broadcast) this 60i is turned into 30p or 24p by combining the fields, aka de-interlacing.
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Well, that would be true if 60i were frame-based, but it's not. Unfortunately, it's treated as such in NLEs. Technically, 60i runs at 60 Hz (actually 59.94 in NTSC). 30 fps doesn't run at 60 Hz unless it's 60i, which really demonstrates that it's not "frames" at all. If 30p is running at 60 Hz, frames are being duplicated every 1/60th of a sec (much like 120 Hz televisions that refresh the same frame twice).

I suspect all this confusion comes from the fact that so many editors have the word "frame" beat into their heads. Video was never frame-based, but the first NLEs (e.g. Premiere 1.0) were always frame-based editors. Using this nomenclature was a big mistake in my opinion, but that's history and I'm not going to cry about it. I guess it's not so much of a problem anymore since video has pretty much transitioned into progressive formats.

The combining fields thing does look terrible, and I don't know why any piece of software would sacrifice its dignity by allowing someone to do this. The proper way to deinterlace for the web would be the "bob" method, or taking the two fields and creating new frames out of them for a 60p result. That would look great on YouTube, but don't hold your breath. Even genuine 60p video is reduced to 30p on YouTube as far as I can tell. It doesn't have to be this way, but I guess Google decided the public would rather have the bandwidth savings than watch something at its intended frame rate.
 
Thomas Worth said:
Even genuine 60p video is reduced to 30p on YouTube as far as I can tell. It doesn't have to be this way, but I guess Google decided the public would rather have the bandwidth savings than watch something at its intended frame rate.
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Why would you ever want genuine 60p? 60p is for post production use, 24p or 30p should always be your final product, but you can use 60p to manipulate speed. I either edit in a 60p timeline and export it at 24p or use a 24p timeline and conform my 60p to 24p for slow motion. 60p looks ****ing terrible, as does 60i, 24p is the only good looking frame rate IMO.
 
eheath said:
Why would you ever want genuine 60p? 60p is for post production use, 24p or 30p should always be your final product, but you can use 60p to manipulate speed. I either edit in a 60p timeline and export it at 24p or use a 24p timeline and conform my 60p to 24p for slow motion. 60p looks poo pooing terrible, as does 60i, 24p is the only good looking frame rate IMO.
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oh really? huh!:Drogar-Shock(DBG):
 
eheath said:
Why would you ever want genuine 60p? 60p is for post production use, 24p or 30p should always be your final product, but you can use 60p to manipulate speed. I either edit in a 60p timeline and export it at 24p or use a 24p timeline and conform my 60p to 24p for slow motion. 60p looks poo pooing terrible, as does 60i, 24p is the only good looking frame rate IMO.
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60P looks terrible? Are you serious? Wow. I can be there with you if you say 60i has some bad things about it, but 60P is pretty freakin good in my opinion.
 
alaskacameradude said:
60P looks terrible? Are you serious? Wow. I can be there with you if you say 60i has some bad things about it, but 60P is pretty freakin good in my opinion.
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Yes, true 60p motion is absolutely terrible, 60i is worse and 30p is ok but IMO if a video online isn't 24p (note: vimeo changes all frame rates to 24p when it encodes their videos) it looks terrible. Big sites like vimeo and youtube don't play 60p but ive seen some random video players, or raw quicktime players with 60p and the motion is so unnatural.
 
I'm confused. I see other people on other forums gushing about how smooth 60P is. Buttery smooth is what they say. 24P is at the other end of the spectrum.
 
eheath said:
Yes, true 60p motion is absolutely terrible, 60i is worse and 30p is ok but IMO if a video online isn't 24p (note: vimeo changes all frame rates to 24p when it encodes their videos) it looks terrible. Big sites like vimeo and youtube don't play 60p but ive seen some random video players, or raw quicktime players with 60p and the motion is so unnatural.
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I'd like to hear your explanation as to why you think 60p motion is "absolutely terrible." Perhaps you mean "60p is inappropriate for dramatic storytelling." Would you say 60p is inappropriate for sports coverage? If so, networks in the U.S. would certainly disagree since they have standardized on either 1080i/60 or 720p/60.

Vimeo doesn't change all frame rates to 24p. If they did this, all non-24p videos would lose audio sync. They are encoded at their native frame rates, except for 50p and 60p videos which are converted to 25p and 30p, respectively. I'm not sure how Vimeo deals with odd rates like 15 or 12.444, etc. but I suspect they aren't converted due to the audio sync issue.
 
I find it curiously antithetical to eHeath's contention that 60p is terrible, that ESPN is investing in a megadollar facility that will specialize in 60p media.
 
eheath said:
Yes, true 60p motion is absolutely terrible, 60i is worse and 30p is ok but IMO if a video online isn't 24p (note: vimeo changes all frame rates to 24p when it encodes their videos) it looks terrible. Big sites like vimeo and youtube don't play 60p but ive seen some random video players, or raw quicktime players with 60p and the motion is so unnatural.
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Hmmm....why does every network who does sports use 60i or 60p do you think? Because the motion is MUCH smoother than 24p, no judder. 60p gives you the smooth motion without the interlace tearing and stairstepping of 60i. And by the way, I have PLENTY of stuff on both vimeo and youtube that is NOT 24p and there is nothing wrong with it. Just another tool, like anything else (shallow depth of field maybe?) Not everything should be shot with a shallow depth of field, and not everything should be shot 24p. Some film school guys went to work for our governor's office putting together a 'news program' (with a political bias of course, but they were supposed to make it look like a news show). They shot it at 24p, because they thought EVERYTHING looked better in 24p. It didn't, the end.
 
To work with 60P in a 23.98 timeline i;
1) link to the orignal
2) select the portion i want in the source viewer
3) hold down the "F" key and insert the shot or drag to the timeline

Done, and done that quickly and easily.

It seems the issues are more FCP related than they are issues with the ablity to work with 60P directly in a 23.98 timeline, it works fine if you have the right tools at hand.

d
 
alaskacameradude said:
Hmmm....why does every network who does sports use 60i or 60p do you think? Because the motion is MUCH smoother than 24p, no judder. 60p gives you the smooth motion without the interlace tearing and stairstepping of 60i. And by the way, I have PLENTY of stuff on both vimeo and youtube that is NOT 24p and there is nothing wrong with it. Just another tool, like anything else (shallow depth of field maybe?) Not everything should be shot with a shallow depth of field, and not everything should be shot 24p. Some film school guys went to work for our governor's office putting together a 'news program' (with a political bias of course, but they were supposed to make it look like a news show). They shot it at 24p, because they thought EVERYTHING looked better in 24p. It didn't, the end.
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I could care less what a network shoots in, that goes to all three of you talking about it. Soap oprahs look terrible to me, 60i makes me want to vomit. I believe networks use 1080i60 because its a 1080 image but at a lower bit rate than 30p correct? Either way, i don't like the "smooth" look of 60i or 60p, at all, the 24p look is what i prefer, film. Sports can easily be filmed in 24p, i do it all the time, you just have to know how to film. I shoot in 60p more often than 24p, but thats mainly for slow motion, ill end up dropping my 60p into a 24p timeline so it drops the extra 36 frames and conforming the stuff i wanted slowed down.


As for vimeo, i heard they convert everything to 24p, ive heard it from many sources. There wouldn't be an audio sync problem because they create an entire new video file for flash video, they encode/compress your video into a new file, its not the same as your original upload video.
 
eheath said:
I could care less what a network shoots in, that goes to all three of you talking about it. Soap oprahs look terrible to me, 60i makes me want to vomit. I believe networks use 1080i60 because its a 1080 image but at a lower bit rate than 30p correct? Either way, i don't like the "smooth" look of 60i or 60p, at all, the 24p look is what i prefer, film. Sports can easily be filmed in 24p, i do it all the time, you just have to know how to film. I shoot in 60p more often than 24p, but thats mainly for slow motion, ill end up dropping my 60p into a 24p timeline so it drops the extra 36 frames and conforming the stuff i wanted slowed down.


As for vimeo, i heard they convert everything to 24p, ive heard it from many sources. There wouldn't be an audio sync problem because they create an entire new video file for flash video, they encode/compress your video into a new file, its not the same as your original upload video.
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Well, there is a REASON the networks film sports at 60p instead of 24p. Yeah, you can shoot sports in 24p, but you could shoot a movie in 60p or 60i as well. Doesn't mean it's the
right choice for that particular type of shoot. You may prefer the 'look' of 24p for everything, but that is not the case for many (dare I say most) of us. Sports looks better
with a smoother frame rate, and that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of those who make these decisions at a 'big' level. Not all sports is shot 1080 60i, many are shot 720 60p.
Many others are now looking at going 1080 60p. Again, I get the 60i objections, but 60p is another thing altogether.
 
alaskacameradude said:
Well, there is a REASON the networks film sports at 60p instead of 24p. Yeah, you can shoot sports in 24p, but you could shoot a movie in 60p or 60i as well. Doesn't mean it's the
right choice for that particular type of shoot. You may prefer the 'look' of 24p for everything, but that is not the case for many (dare I say most) of us. Sports looks better
with a smoother frame rate, and that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of those who make these decisions at a 'big' level. Not all sports is shot 1080 60i, many are shot 720 60p.
Many others are now looking at going 1080 60p. Again, I get the 60i objections, but 60p is another thing altogether.
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I do shoot sports 95% of the time i shoot and i use 60p in most occasions, ive shots a bunch in 24p too. But, what my main point is that 60p as a final product looks way too smooth and exporting your 60p as 24p looks better, in my opinion of course. Feel free to look at any video on my vimeo page, they were all shot at 720p60 (minus a couple random 24p edits in there i did with my redrock) and then eventually came out as 24p as the final product.

There is definitely a big difference between independent filmers and network/broadcast based filmers and i think thats the crossroads we find ourselves at now.
 
I like shooting 60p for slo mo as well, it looks REALLY good. All I was saying was that different frame rates for different things, even if it is just for the person paying the bills.
I usually ask the client (unless I am doing a local TV spot in which case they just ask me to 'make something cool')

I shot some stuff for Toyota last week.....1080 24p is what they wanted. I did some stuff for a documentary guy that flew up from LA. He had me shoot some 1080 60i and some 1080 30p.
(I'm guessing to match with what he had already shot??)
I shot a high school football game, the coach wanted 60p for slo mo if needed. And finally, some freelance news, they wanted 1080 60i. I like being able to choose frame rates,
based on what I am shooting, it keeps the clients happy :-) In general, I default to 1080 24p, but I will change if the client (or me) think the shoot warrants it.
 
alaskacameradude said:
I like shooting 60p for slo mo as well, it looks REALLY good. All I was saying was that different frame rates for different things, even if it is just for the person paying the bills.
I usually ask the client (unless I am doing a local TV spot in which case they just ask me to 'make something cool')

I shot some stuff for Toyota last week.....1080 24p is what they wanted. I did some stuff for a documentary guy that flew up from LA. He had me shoot some 1080 60i and some 1080 30p.
(I'm guessing to match with what he had already shot??)
I shot a high school football game, the coach wanted 60p for slo mo if needed. And finally, some freelance news, they wanted 1080 60i. I like being able to choose frame rates,
based on what I am shooting, it keeps the clients happy :-) In general, I default to 1080 24p, but I will change if the client (or me) think the shoot warrants it.
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Well yes, you have to shoot what the cilent wants or else you'd be the boss. :)
 
Does the US variant of the FS100 have 1/50 or 1/100 shutter, etc. while shooting 24p to cope with flicker under lights while working in the UK or EU under 50Hz mains supply?
 
eheath said:
As for vimeo, i heard they convert everything to 24p, ive heard it from many sources. There wouldn't be an audio sync problem because they create an entire new video file for flash video, they encode/compress your video into a new file, its not the same as your original upload video.
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I can confirm that Vimeo absolutely does not convert all video to 24p. Videos retain their native rates with the exception of 50p and 60p (I have yet to confirm lower rates like 15 or 12). 50p and 60p rates are decimated by a factor of 2, which does not affect audio sync. I suspect YouTube works the same way.

You can test this yourself by using one of the video download extensions for FireFox or Chrome to download a video from Vimeo and then checking the file's frame rate.
 
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