FS-100 Post Workflow (60p) problems

M

matthewclevy

New member
Hey guys,

I am currently working on a project in which they are shooting with the new sony FS-100. They have shot various amounts of 60p footage mixed in with 23.97. I am editing in FCP 7 and trying to transcode in it as well via Log and Transfer but being that Final Cut Pro is a piece of....garbage and doesn't allow the transcoding of 60p footage I have been running through a third party program called Foxreal HD Video Converter, which is slow,unstable and quits out on me sporadically. It takes about three times the amount of time to transcode footage. I have been looking around for answers in regards to post workflows dealing with AVCHD transcoding of 60p footage but haven't had much luck. Does anyone on here know of anything I can do differently/have any suggestions. It seems a bit ridiculous that I can't seem to find a post workflow that is reliable in terms of working with AVCHD mixed frame rates..

P.S.- i am currently downloading a trial of Premiere Pro just to watch dailies but I don't want to result in editing with it.

Thanks so much in advance! :dankk2:
 
matthewclevy said:
Hey guys,

I am currently working on a project in which they are shooting with the new sony FS-100. They have shot various amounts of 60p footage mixed in with 23.97. I am editing in FCP 7 and trying to transcode in it as well via Log and Transfer but being that Final Cut Pro is a piece of....garbage and doesn't allow the transcoding of 60p footage I have been running through a third party program called Foxreal HD Video Converter, which is slow,unstable and quits out on me sporadically. It takes about three times the amount of time to transcode footage. I have been looking around for answers in regards to post workflows dealing with AVCHD transcoding of 60p footage but haven't had much luck. Does anyone on here know of anything I can do differently/have any suggestions. It seems a bit ridiculous that I can't seem to find a post workflow that is reliable in terms of working with AVCHD mixed frame rates..

P.S.- i am currently downloading a trial of Premiere Pro just to watch dailies but I don't want to result in editing with it.

Thanks so much in advance! :dankk2:
Click to expand...

I can suggest a couple of options. I have workflows that use either Cineform or DNxHD, depending on the level of CC/grading I need to do. My favorite method is to bring the AVCHD footage straight away into After Effects v5.5, where I can apply an LUT, CC via Synthetic AP, slomo, or stabilize. I output from AE straight to DNxHD progressive, usually 220x and then into Media Composer 5.5 for cutting. Using DNxHD I can "fast import" my DNxHD footage, very short waiting times. I have come, over the last 3 years, to rely heavily on Media Composer. Avid has never let me down, unlike my previous NLE, who shall remain nameless. Trust me, I don't work for Avid, but, I never have to make excuses to my clients...;)
 
Use clipwrap to encode the .mts to prores 422. It will be 1080p60 so you can just drop it into your timeline and fcp will drop 36 frames for you. If you want it slow motion, then you need to encode that prores file again through mpeg stream clip THEN you can conform it to 24p with cinema tools. Annoy process, but it works.
 
FCP isnt crap because it doesnt recognize 1080p60. Its a new thing. Avid doesnt recognize it either (well maybe it does, but there is no 1080p60 timeline).

This is what I do with 1080p60...

First I use Clipwrap to transcode it to prores or Avid DNxHD (I edit with MC5.5 now, so I use DNxHD). Then you can either use that pro res shot wherever you need it (it will work in final cut 7, but you will need to render each shot in the timeline). If you want to mix it well with 24p, then you would want to conform it to 24p, making it slow mo.
Now its a bit weird and tricky since for some reason, Cinema Tools does not recognize the 1080p60 from clipwrap. So then, use mpeg streamclip to just transcode it again to prores and for some reason after you do that, Cinema Tools will recognize it. Then just conform to 24p and you have yourself a 24p clip that you can easily use.

Hope that helped.
 
DOSMedia said:
FCP isnt crap because it doesnt recognize 1080p60. Its a new thing.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. FCP doesn't even do proper slowmotion to 50i/60i material. If you drop it to halfspeed, it will first deinterlace by throwing away one field and then drop the speed. Which results in 60 frames being dropped to 30. So a 50% speed reduction will only use 30 frames and looks very bad.

Premiere does it properly.

Frame speed handling has always been unbelievably bad in FCP and I don't get how anyone can say it isn't crap. Having to transcode 60p material TWICE to get the ability to see it in realtime or slowmowed. Compared to just dropping the material in and using it in Premiere.
 
I've tried dropping 60P into PP CS5.5, with LPCM audio, and get no audio. Only when I record with (lesser quality) Dolby Digital does 60P come into CS5.5 with sound.
 
I am having problems using Clipwrap. I convert my 60p footage but all that comes out when the conversion is finished is black footage. I read a few people are having similar problems but I can't seem to find a resolution for all of that.

I would rather not use Media Composer for this project.

It's absolutely ludicrous that there isn't any solution for this problem other than just using Adobe Premiere to edit with. I would rather not go this route but it seems as though it's the only one to take. Am I just missing something or is there really nothing at all to fix this problem?
 
matthewclevy said:
I am having problems using Clipwrap. I convert my 60p footage but all that comes out when the conversion is finished is black footage. I read a few people are having similar problems but I can't seem to find a resolution for all of that.

I would rather not use Media Composer for this project.

It's absolutely ludicrous that there isn't any solution for this problem other than just using Adobe Premiere to edit with. I would rather not go this route but it seems as though it's the only one to take. Am I just missing something or is there really nothing at all to fix this problem?
Click to expand...

Clipwrap is super easy to use, you shouldn't be having any problems. it has produced great 1080p60 prores 422 for me.

Another option is 5DtoRGB. its a little slower, but it reads MTS and the exported prores 1080p60 is usable in cinema tools. You have to play with the settings a bunch too so that it doesn't **** with you image. Im gonna probably stick with mts -> clip wrap -> mpeg
 
eheath said:
Another option is 5DtoRGB. its a little slower, but it reads MTS and the exported prores 1080p60 is usable in cinema tools. You have to play with the settings a bunch too so that it doesn't poo poo with you image. Im gonna probably stick with mts -> clip wrap -> mpeg
Click to expand...

I just tried for like 20 mins to make it so the program wouldn't alter my image, couldn't fix it, **** that.
 
maarek said:
Yes it is. FCP doesn't even do proper slowmotion to 50i/60i material. If you drop it to halfspeed, it will first deinterlace by throwing away one field and then drop the speed. Which results in 60 frames being dropped to 30. So a 50% speed reduction will only use 30 frames and looks very bad.

I'm afraid you don't understand 50/60i. Also, I edit 1080/60p in FCPX. FCP7 handles 60p for over crank just fine. Why would you over crank with 60i anyway?
Click to expand...
 
eheath said:
Clipwrap is super easy to use, you shouldn't be having any problems. it has produced great 1080p60 prores 422 for me.

Another option is 5DtoRGB. its a little slower, but it reads MTS and the exported prores 1080p60 is usable in cinema tools. You have to play with the settings a bunch too so that it doesn't poo poo with you image. Im gonna probably stick with mts -> clip wrap -> mpeg
Click to expand...

I just opened up 5DtoRGB to convert my AVCHD .mts footage. It's absolutely ridiculous that I got this message but and error box popped up saying it wouldn't export my sound included in the .mts video.....

It seems that the only solution really is using Adobe Premiere Pro for instant footage.

If anyone out there has a solution please post!!
 
You must not have the proper version of clipwrap.
When I first downloaded the trial, it didnt work and I had that same problem. People kept insisting to me that it did, so I pull the trigger and bought it for $50 and re-downloaded it. Ever since then I have not had any problem.

Try re-downloading it. Ive been told it does work with the trial as well.

Dont freak out because clipwrap does work and I use it all the time for this (I cant stand premier either).
 
matthewclevy said:
I just opened up 5DtoRGB to convert my AVCHD .mts footage. It's absolutely ridiculous that I got this message but and error box popped up saying it wouldn't export my sound included in the .mts video.....

It seems that the only solution really is using Adobe Premiere Pro for instant footage.

If anyone out there has a solution please post!!
Click to expand...

Are you sure you're using the latest version (1.5.2b?)
I have the PAL version of the FS100 and 5DtoRGB 1.5.2b worked fine with PCM audio at 25p.
I'll test it with 50p soon and post back.
 
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matthewclevy said:
I just opened up 5DtoRGB to convert my AVCHD .mts footage. It's absolutely ridiculous that I got this message but and error box popped up saying it wouldn't export my sound included in the .mts video.....

It seems that the only solution really is using Adobe Premiere Pro for instant footage.

If anyone out there has a solution please post!!
Click to expand...

Download the latest version of 5DtoRGB, 1.5.2b. It will output sound with MTS files.
 
To follow up on my earlier post - I don't usually work with 1080p50, but here are my test results, FWIW:

Given a 50p MTS with PCM audio I can't get 5DtoRGB 1.5.2b to retain the audio in the output file. (I don't get any error message about audio).
Hopefully an update can resolve this because I like the conversion quality and control over colour matrix and gamma that this program provides. (Thanks Thomas!)

Clipwrap however does retain audio, and produces a 50p Pro Res file that I can drop onto a timeline in FCP (to test I used 50p preset at 1280x720 and accepted FCP's offer of sequence change to 1920x1080). Didn't need to render the timeline.

I exported the timeline from FCP and got a 1920x1080 50p Pro Res file that will reconform to 25p in Cinema Tools for slow motion (with audio at half speed).



 
dustylense said:
maarek said:
Yes it is. FCP doesn't even do proper slowmotion to 50i/60i material. If you drop it to halfspeed, it will first deinterlace by throwing away one field and then drop the speed. Which results in 60 frames being dropped to 30. So a 50% speed reduction will only use 30 frames and looks very bad.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you don't understand 50/60i. Also, I edit 1080/60p in FCPX. FCP7 handles 60p for over crank just fine. Why would you over crank with 60i anyway?
Click to expand...
It used to be common to overcrank with 60i (yes, 60i, not 60p). You can get a similar result, motion-wise, to 60p albeit at half-res. I wrote an article on 60i -> 24p a long time ago.

And yes, most software does not perform a proper deinterlace to 60p from 60i. I'm not sure why. The correct way to deinterlace 60i is NOT to deinterlace to 30p (and discard information), but to deinterlace and up-res to 60p. Very few programs do this.
 
Thomas Worth said:
It used to be common to overcrank with 60i (yes, 60i, not 60p). You can get a similar result, motion-wise, to 60p albeit at half-res. I wrote an article on 60i -> 24p a long time ago.

And yes, most software does not perform a proper deinterlace to 60p from 60i. I'm not sure why. The correct way to deinterlace 60i is NOT to deinterlace to 30p (and discard information), but to deinterlace and up-res to 60p. Very few programs do this.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but when you de-interlace 60i it becomes 30p. If you go from 60i to 60p you're doing a much more complicated process than deinterlacing, you're taking each 1/2 frame and using the 1/2 frames from before and after to create a full frame. its 1/2 resolution and honestly it works but i dunno why you would ever shoot 60i when you can shoot 60p.
 
eheath said:
I'm sorry, but when you de-interlace 60i it becomes 30p.
"De-interlace" just means to process the video in such a way so it is not interlaced. There are several ways to do it, most of which are incorrect in my opinion and discard picture information.
Click to expand...

The 30p method, as you mention, is the most common (i.e. quick-and-dirty) method but it also throws away half of the temporal picture. The equivalent to this would be taking a 30 fps video and making it 15 fps.

60i video, just like 60p, holds 60 discrete images per second. The only difference between 60i and 60p is that 60i stores these images as fields at half the vertical resolution, whereas 60p stores them as full frames.

If you go from 60i to 60p you're doing a much more complicated process than deinterlacing, you're taking each 1/2 frame and using the 1/2 frames from before and after to create a full frame. its 1/2 resolution and honestly it works but i dunno why you would ever shoot 60i when you can shoot 60p.
Click to expand...

You only need one field to create a full frame. So, you actually create TWO progressive frames from each interlaced frame. Since 60i is 30 "frames" per second, and you are splitting each "frame" into two new frames, you have 60 images per second, or 60p (at half-res, of course).

Keep in mind interlaced video is commonly referred to as "30 frames per second," but this is not accurate. There is no such thing as "frames" in interlaced video, only fields. A better way to describe the video is to say "60i." Example:

60i = 60 images per second, stored as fields (i)
60p = 60 images per second, stored as frames (p)

That's why we can get slow motion from 30 frame interlaced video. There are actually 60 images per second.
 
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eheath said:
I'm sorry, but when you de-interlace 60i it becomes 30p.
Click to expand...

Why is this so difficult? Thomas actually explained it very well, thank you Thomas!

Is it because a lot of software makers have NO IDEA how interlacing works eventhough in the end it's quite simple? This thread is kinda proof of that.

A lot of cameras have the option to either do 1080p25 or 1080i50 here in Pal land. So why shoot 50i? Because it is smoother. Eventhough the beloved FCP can't handle it at all and could never handle it, even in SD world with 720x576 50i material. In the old days we converted material with Virtualdub or just in AE. Nowawadays we don't have to. Except FCP users who have to fool around in Cinematools.

You could actually spot shows that were edited with FCP in the old days as a lot of them had serious field issues. I've done a lot of repairing other peoples FCP projects who haven't looked at all how the interlacing works. Though this discussion would be better to move into the Post Production forums.
 
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