Freelance work, am I being ripped off?

P

pulp

Active member
Ok... so, sadly, I kind of know the answer to that question, but this post is more about specifics.

I work for a company that sends videographers out to clients for 2-hour shoots. The videographer shoots an interview with a company's manager or owner, gets a bunch of B roll, then edits the material down to a 3-minute commercial for the company. They pay jack, less than most companies I've seen, but I'm constantly sending out resumes, so I'm basically just working this gig until something else comes along. It wouldn't be such a hassle if they organized better. Seeing that the videographer does the shooting and editing, and the company basically just manages the clients remotely (they're on the West coast, I'm on the opposite side of the country), you'd think they'd spend more time managing the clients. But clients cancel constantly, I'd say every other shoot, and we don't get paid anything for cancellations, which means we have a free day and generally don't have time to get other work for that day. Again, I'd quit, but I need the money right now until better work picks up. The lousiest part is travel compensation. They don't offer it to me. They have 4 or 5 videographers working in DC, and then me, who's 2ish hours away. Most of the jobs are around DC, and they pay $.15 to the mile for travel IF the work is over 30 miles from DC center. This includes for me, who DOESN'T live in DC. They told me they "hired me as if I work in DC, so I have to write down mileage as if I work in DC." So, at most, I'll make $9-11 for travel compensation, but most times, the videos are within 30 miles of DC, so I get nothing. They're knowingly screwing me, and I'd say maybe 20% or more of every paycheck I get has already gone directly into my gas tank.

There was no contract when I started working there. I've tried to contact other videographers who shoot for them to see their experience. I know they've often times put me on gigs that noone else wants, clients that other people have worked with, hated, and turned down for future work. So, I was wondering, is invoicing me for travel as if I'm in DC, without a written agreement, but then mailing my checks to another state knowing a violation of any law? Are they legally doing anything wrong here?

Again, I know I should simply quit, but freelance work isn't coming right now, and I need the money. It'd just be nice if not so much of it went to paying my own gas.
 
First, that travel thing is you having the wrong expectations. That's a standard policy when you're hired by a place you need to commute to. You chose to work for somewhere at a distance, you take the hit. They're policy with clients probably involves fees depending on distance from DC, not distance from DC except for this one guy.

You're getting paid to do work. That means you're not getting ripped off. If you were capable of doing work on your own or getting hired by someone else you could move up, but as it stands that's what you have. There are hundreds of low end production places like this, and even they can be better than nothing, which is what a lot of people are stuck with. So deal with it or do something else. If you think you can do better, try selling the same basic thing to your own clients.
 
Cassius said:
First, that travel thing is you having the wrong expectations. That's a standard policy when you're hired by a place you need to commute to. You chose to work for somewhere at a distance, you take the hit. They're policy with clients probably involves fees depending on distance from DC, not distance from DC except for this one guy.

You're getting paid to do work. That means you're not getting ripped off. If you were capable of doing work on your own or getting hired by someone else you could move up, but as it stands that's what you have. There are hundreds of low end production places like this, and even they can be better than nothing, which is what a lot of people are stuck with. So deal with it or do something else. If you think you can do better, try selling the same basic thing to your own clients.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. However, that said, your remark on what it isn't is exactly what it is.

I'm the only videographer who's hired as working in DC who doesn't work in DC. The others live in DC or the suburbs, I live a few hours away. So, they're paid their travel compensation based on the mileage from DC center to the client, if that mileage is over 30 each way. I, however, am compensated under the same system. The difference is, unlike all of their other videographers, I don't live in DC. I'm compensated as if I do, however, and they stand by that it's where they "hired me from," as if I did. I never lived them.

Mind you, none of the videographers commute to "work," a central place where the videos are always shot. They travel to different gigs, a different location each day. Most are in or around DC, within 50 miles, usually. The average is around 20 or 30 for most. However, my normal travel to a shoot is 100 miles or so each way. The irony is, the closer it is to DC, the MORE I travel. So, chances are, if it's 30 or less miles from DC, I'm traveling further than if it were more than 30 miles from DC, because I'm... not in DC. Clients aren't charge any different no matter where they're located. So, yes, it quite literally is, for videographers, compensation based on distance from DC, except this one guy.


mcgeedigital said:
If the client cancels the same day you SHOULD get your full rate however.
Click to expand...

Most cancellations are same-day. For a while, we weren't getting paid at all if we didn't end up shooting. However, clients cancelling once we arrived got so common that they put in a $25 bonus for same-day cancellations. However, it doesn't include travel compensation, so most times, if I've already left for the shoot or, worse, are already there when they cancel, that $25 doesn't even cover my gas.


I've spoken with a friend who works for a photo company that does similar work, sending shooters out to various churches to take photos to their patrons. While he has a lot of complaints about employee treatment, he said he absolutely gets paid his normal rate if a client cancels same-day, as well as travel compensation based on where he LIVES, not where he was "hired from" by region.
 
Cassius said:
First, that travel thing is you having the wrong expectations. That's a standard policy when you're hired by a place you need to commute to. You chose to work for somewhere at a distance, you take the hit. They're policy with clients probably involves fees depending on distance from DC, not distance from DC except for this one guy.
Click to expand...

You are right. One has to commute to work on their own expense. But travel DURING work is an expense that the employer or client has to pay for. I always charge my clients for travel expenses. That has to be included into the budget same as camera equipment or wage.

I really disguise people who take advantage of workers who don't have another choice. Just because there is someone else just around the corner to do the job doesn't mean you can treat your employees as you like.
 
Last edited:
Neveraholiday said:
You are right. One has to commute to work on their own expense. But travel DURING work is an expense that the employer or client has to pay for. I always charge my clients for travel expenses. That has to be included into the budget same as camera equipment or wage.

I really disguise people who take advantage of workers who don't have another choice. Just because there is someone else just around the corner to do the job doesn't mean you can treat your employees as you like.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point. Their other employees are paid IN FULL for their travel. So, no, they do not have to commute to work on their own expense. They're compensated for it. I'm not. This isn't freelance work on a private basis, or an everyday drive-to-work job. It's contracted out by a larger company, and their policy includes travel compensation... except for me. Which is why I posted this.

If it were my CHOICE to manage these jobs as I'd like, I wouldn't be posting this. I'd be asking what I felt was fair for the work, I'd shoot the videos as I saw fit for the best results for the client, I'd manage the clients to be sure that they knew same-day cancellations weren't acceptable and that they'd have to pay in full for such faults, and I'd make them pay for my travel.

These are all things in my contract when I work privately as a videographer: work rate, quality guarantee, deposits, cancellation clause, travel compensation.

But this isn't my working as a videographer on my own. It's being contracted by someone else to shoot the video, edit it, send it in for final revisions, and getting paid a rate set by that COMPANY, paid whenever they feel like it, at a rate they set, under their guidelines for shooting, without any guarantee of cancellation or, in my case, travel compensation. We're talking about two different things here. I don't get to decide any of the stipulations, and when I submitted my personal contract when I first started working for them, they said no contract would be honored over theirs (mind you, I've never seen one on their end, but I know their regulations from word of mouth).
 
If you are looking for legal advice you need to consult a lawyer.

If you feel like you are getting screwed but some money is better than no money right now then all you can do is grin and bear it until you find some better work.

I find commiserating w/friends or co-workers over a beer is a great coping mechanism. :beer:


-Andrew
 
If you itemize your taxes, you can claim any mileage they don't pay... and that can make a pretty considerable difference at the end of the year. Within the last few years I've had a couple thousand miles make the difference between owing the IRS more money and getting a refund.

That said, I'm not entirely sure how they can legitimately count mileage using a starting point that doesn't exist for you. As has been said, you should consult a lawyer if you want legal advice.
 
Alex H. said:
If you itemize your taxes, you can claim any mileage they don't pay...
Click to expand...

Good advice. But keep in mind that you can only deduct miles from your place of business to the client site. If your place of business is your home, you might be able to take the deduction from your "home office" to the client site. But if you have another location you use as an office, then you would have to travel there first, and deduct the miles from there to the site. A call to the IRS can give you some guidance on this. Or hire a lawyer or accountant of course.....

BTW, what would happen if you tried to re-negotiate the terms? At the very least, they really should pay you the full fee for a client who cancels the day of the shoot. But you should work that out with them - in writing - before your next canceled shoot.... Can't normally go back and change the past.

Good luck.
 
Alex H. said:
If you itemize your taxes, you can claim any mileage they don't pay... and that can make a pretty considerable difference at the end of the year. Within the last few years I've had a couple thousand miles make the difference between owing the IRS more money and getting a refund.

That said, I'm not entirely sure how they can legitimately count mileage using a starting point that doesn't exist for you. As has been said, you should consult a lawyer if you want legal advice.
Click to expand...

If I could afford a lawyer, I'd certainly seek their assistance. I don't want to stir up trouble with this employer, but it's pretty obvious that they know they're screwing me in order to save $10-20 per shoot. Doesn't make much of a difference for a company that spends a few grand a day on videos, they just do it because it's easy, but it does hurt a guy who makes less than $100 at the end of the day.

I collect all my receipts and log my gas mileage for this job, but as of last tax season, I didn't even make enough from this job to log it for a deduction. I was incredibly under the poverty line.

keylight said:
BTW, what would happen if you tried to re-negotiate the terms? At the very least, they really should pay you the full fee for a client who cancels the day of the shoot. But you should work that out with them - in writing - before your next canceled shoot.... Can't normally go back and change the past.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

I had asked once about getting gas compensation. When I first started, they told me that, because I wasn't actually from DC, they couldn't give me ANY compensation. I quickly realized how much that hurt me, and when I brought it up again, they claimed that they intended all along for me to claim that I lived in DC, and just conveniently never noticed that I wasn't listing it in my invoices. When I asked if I could claim it from where I'm actually located, they said no.

They won't let me submit anything in writing. No contract of mine can trump theirs (as I said, no real written "contract" for them though, just word of mouth, but they won't even look at a contract I send them). The most they've ever been willing to do was $25 plus travel comp from DC, but that was when I was sitting in the parking lot of a client's office and they office was closed, the client had forgot, the company didn't remind them, and that didn't even cover gas.
 
You probably signed a non-competing clause. But that doesn't mean they'd go after you if you picked up your own clients out of theirs. Not exactly moral, I know. But I've done it when working for an outfit that didn't compensate or reimburse in a realistic way. I figured they must have factored that risk into their stringers' contracts, which is why it was so lousy.

I'll probably get some comments on this advice but the fact remains that if you treat your workers well, they will treat you well.
 
Jordan_S said:
You probably signed a non-competing clause. But that doesn't mean they'd go after you if you picked up your own clients out of theirs. Not exactly moral, I know. But I've done it when working for an outfit that didn't compensate or reimburse in a realistic way. I figured they must have factored that risk into their stringers' contracts, which is why it was so lousy.

I'll probably get some comments on this advice but the fact remains that if you treat your workers well, they will treat you well.
Click to expand...

They actually only do very specific videos, so if clients want anything other than their very cut and dry formula, they're of no use to them. That's when clients generally email me directly, when the company tells them "sorry, we don't do that."
 
I dont know about you, but when I take a gig, I start work long before I leave the house, which includes, packing and loading the gear, making sure everything is charged and working. I bill by the 1/2 day or full day. I dont work by the hr, unless it's a favor or something im passionate about. As Noah stated, you should be compted for EVERY CANCELLATION, thats same day. Thats rediculous, and you better bet that the company you work for has a policy in place for this, their just not paying you. which is scummy. I hate these types of companies, they degrage our occupation, and undercut the pros. By working for them, your only cutting your own throat, and hlping to bring down the trades wages by creating unfair competition. By the time you add travel, fuel, wear and tear, you would probably make more working at MC Donalds.
 
maranfilms said:
I dont know about you, but when I take a gig, I start work long before I leave the house, which includes, packing and loading the gear, making sure everything is charged and working. I bill by the 1/2 day or full day. I dont work by the hr, unless it's a favor or something im passionate about. As Noah stated, you should be compted for EVERY CANCELLATION, thats same day. Thats rediculous, and you better bet that the company you work for has a policy in place for this, their just not paying you. which is scummy. I hate these types of companies, they degrage our occupation, and undercut the pros. By working for them, your only cutting your own throat, and hlping to bring down the trades wages by creating unfair competition. By the time you add travel, fuel, wear and tear, you would probably make more working at MC Donalds.
Click to expand...

I've actually considered that. When you consider that each shoot, with prep and travel, makes an entire day of mine unusable for anything else, and then add several more hours for import and editing, and several more for uploading to the FTP, I'm spending about a day and a half on each video. Divide $90 or so by a day and a half, and that's $7.50. Mind you, my friend who works for a similar photo company said he gets pretty down when he thinks about that too much, but he gets tipped often. I've NEVER been tipped, even by clients who were huge problems, incredibly unprepared and aware of that, and/or were aware that the company doesn't treat their shooters very well. The one real benefit is it keeps me on the camera, though this kind of no-brain material doesn't do much to stimulate or teach me anything new. It does, technically, add a new client to a rather laundry list, though.

If they compted for every cancellation, I'd probably be making twice as much, almost. Nearly every client cancels, and if they don't, someone else cancels two or three times.

As far as undercutting the pros, again, they do a very formulated, specific style of video, so unless someone else were to do that, there's not much competition for anyone who has preference of taste. They also find their own clients, probably coldcalling, and they're rarely clients who would have had interest in having a video shot otherwise, or anyone who knows anything about videos or has preference in how it's done. I'd say 1/10 clients have ideas about what they want. For anyone in their right mind, they're hardly competition, and that occasional client with taste contacts me personally afterwards.
 
I'm pretty sure you're talking about TH? I did a ton of work for them a few years ago. I live in Baltimore so I know exactly what you're talking about. They used to try to pull these kinds of stunts with me too. What I learned to do is negotiate these things when they called me for the job. They were usually in a pinch so I would usually get what I wanted. But be ready to turn down the job if they won't agree to it. Believe me, they value good filmmakers above all, and if they have to pay an extra $30 or whatever to get their product made, they'll do it.

I eventually quit doing work for them because of the low pay, but the experience was great. You really learn how to make something out of nothing and do it fast. Even after quitting, they still call me for stuff. And they always will bump the price up a bit to try to get me to bite.
 
drubynum said:
I'm pretty sure you're talking about TH? I did a ton of work for them a few years ago. I live in Baltimore so I know exactly what you're talking about. They used to try to pull these kinds of stunts with me too. What I learned to do is negotiate these things when they called me for the job. They were usually in a pinch so I would usually get what I wanted. But be ready to turn down the job if they won't agree to it. Believe me, they value good filmmakers above all, and if they have to pay an extra $30 or whatever to get their product made, they'll do it.

I eventually quit doing work for them because of the low pay, but the experience was great. You really learn how to make something out of nothing and do it fast. Even after quitting, they still call me for stuff. And they always will bump the price up a bit to try to get me to bite.
Click to expand...

Nah, not TH. I'm not sure what TH is. This company told me that some of their videographers had to be told multiple times that handheld isn't acceptable for shots that aren't moving, and that shooting interviews with different ethnicities needs to be color balanced properly or the skin tone will be off. Beginners stuff, and they hire people without that knowledge and then have to instruct them on it.
 
I thought it was TH until he said there was no written contract or rules involved.
TH puts a lot in writing, for better or worse, though I don't think they'd try to start mileage from somewhere other than your starting point (do they even pay mileage?).
Haven't worked for TH, but looked into it at one point.

Can you use their videos as demos? If so, use them to find new clients.

Good luck!
 
I just hate to see any fellow shooter being treated unfairly, but as you said" at least your shooting". And when I think about it, I guess I would rather make a low wage doing something I love than make a low wage doing something I hate. Let me tell you as an employer, If you dont ask, you will not get. Meaning you have to negotiate a bit, ask for more, heaven knows their not going to offer more if they can get you for less. Maybe try to tell them that even a two hr shoot takes you at least four, when you look at loading, and prepering, unloading, cutting. im sure they know. their in this biz, they have to.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top