First shoot with HVX?

>All of the HDV cameras don't have uncompressed outputs on them?

no, they don't. Except for the XL-H1, what they have is Analog Component output. Again, analog cannot be compressed or uncompressed, it just doesn't apply. This is a fact.

The XL-H1 does have an Uncompressed SDI and HD-SDI output, which is a true digital uncompressed output. This is a fact.

If you want to accuse us of inaccurate claims, then feel free to do so but I suggest you be specific and use an appropriate medium, like a thread in the Technical section or email me. I'll be more than happy to answer all your questions.

Cheers,
Juan
 
Barry_Green said:
And as far as the "no 1080p?" thing goes -- that rumor is like a confounded vampire. I keep trying to drive stakes through its heart, and it keeps popping up again.
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:laugh: :grin: [You amuse me! :) We don't know each other personally but I can teel you absolutely, positively, unquestionably, without a doubt, in the first version, You are a cool guy, Barry]

Isaac_Brody said:
Harlan, you do realize that pertierr is the Reelstream people right?
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Barry_Green said:
harlan said:
You can modify pretty much any camera to do the same thing the reel-stream people are doing with the DVX...
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Harlan, FYI, who you're discussing that with *is* the reel-stream people... "pertierr" is Juan of Reel-Stream.
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pertierr said:
If you want to accuse us of inaccurate claims, then feel free to do so but I suggest you be specific and use an appropriate medium, like a thread in the Technical section or email me. I'll be more than happy to answer all your questions.

Cheers,
Juan
Click to expand...
So, it's you!:shocked:the REE(A)L uncompressed-minded one...

harlan said:
Your Reel-Stream product is a hack to the camera, and it costs money, correct?? It can also, theoretically be performed on any of the new cameras (given the amount of time & investment you've put into the DVX mod).
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Congrats for your work. We'd like to see a HVX Andromeda!...and for a portable device also! (OK it's too much by now, I already know, but who knows when?)
Do you know?
 
mikkowilson said:
Well for composition, he probabaly gets bettter color acuracy in 720 than 1080..

- Mikko
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Why is that?
I thought the much wider bandwidth of the 1080 will enable lower compression, and therefore better quality and accuracy...
Am I wrong to expect better quality across the board with 1080 vs. 720?
is the color accuracy really better in 720 mode compared to 1080 mode?
:shocked:

Thanks for any information abouth that,

Yuval.
 
The exact same DCT compression ratio is applied on 720 as on 1080. I would expect identical color fidelity between them.


Am I wrong to expect better quality across the board with 1080 vs. 720?
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I don't know about "better quality"; what you should expect is a bigger frame with more definition, but at the same quality. The same color sampling, the same compression ratio, just twice as many pixels per frame. Now, I certainly don't expect 1080 to have twice the definition of 720, but I do expect it to have more definition... it just really depends on how much definition can be transmitted by the lens and resolved by the chips.

The 1080p mode should be capable of recording the most that the camera can deliver. The 720p mode can probably deliver a good 80% of that resolution (or so) while taking up less space on the card and providing variable frame rates to boot. I don't know why Michael Caporale chose to shoot 720p -- maybe his music video makes use of the variable frame rates? I know that when I do get my hands on an HVX, I most definitely plan on shooting 1080p!
 
Both 1080p and 720p are compressed to a 100mbps stream so you're getting a fairly significant amount more compression on the 1080 footage.

EDIT: Barry beat me to it!
 
Hey,

I don't think the key is that bad, in fact I think it is quite good. It certainly looks better and has more detail than the second post from Obin, which from what his description said, just about anything would. The Fruit display was lovely, however. The music video has a visual style to it, that refelcts the way the DP decided it should look. I find that people are always more critical of other people's work. That is real easy. Making statements that it shouldn't look so video or the depth of field should have been whatever ... well since you were not the DP, that wasn't or isn't your choice, that was Michael's.

Michael has shot a number of things for me before and he is an excellent DP, coming from a very long background in film production, and now ownng a Varicam, a SDX900 and a DVX. He is one of trainers in the HD Expo VariCamp and is the author of the scene files for the SDX900.

It is one frame grab, out of an entire 3 minute video and frankly Mike wanted to take on the challenge of Green Screen work and because he was familiar with the Varicam and that look, he made his decisions in 720P. I have seen it on a 20 foot screen and it looks pretty good. The individual hairs that are keyed on the blonde woman do not have any green print through. You may not care for it, but then that is personal taste. Does the frame grab look good in the context of the video? Yes it does.

As far as it going up the wrong aspect, sorry that was my fault. I sent the wrong one. Show me one person who has not made a mistake. That has now been corrected.

Thanks,

Jan
 
Pertierr,
I guess I'm not following your statement. It's true that the HVX200 does not have an SDI output, but you can still buy a $600 or less component to SDI converter for uncompressed output, albeit 4:2:2 color space.

The specs from Panasonics's Janglish decoded web site show:
"
D4 component output
As a camera image output, 1080i/720p/480i (each 59. 94Hz) The analog component which can output each signal (Y/Pb/PR) we have the terminal, can view with the general HD/SD TV monitor.

Which brings up the question, when did D4 become a reality? I work for a Japanese company and 4 is an unlucky number. Also, I believe D4 is death in
kanji?
 
Shaw said:
Both 1080p and 720p are compressed to a 100mbps stream so you're getting a fairly significant amount more compression on the 1080 footage.
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Actually the compression is exactly the same, in terms of bits per pixel. The 1080p frame has twice as many pixels, but the 720p system has twice as many frames. So it works out that the compression is exactly the same; the DCT compression is at a 6.7:1 ratio whether it's 1080 or 720.
 
What Juan is saying is that the analog output isn't a digital signal, so it's not a fair comparison.

What everyone else is saying is that while that's true, it's still uncompressed (in that it hasn't undergone any sort of DCT compression). And what Harlan said is that 99.5% of people couldn't tell the difference between analog and uncompressed HD-SDI anyway. Whether that's true or not I don't know, but obviously the raw HD-SDI signal is going to be more accurate than converting that signal to analog and then using an Aja or something to convert that analog signal back to digital for ingest.
 
pertierr said:
> Except for the XL-H1, what they have is Analog Component output. Again, analog cannot be compressed or uncompressed, it just doesn't apply.
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If the signal is not compressed then it "by nature" is uncompressed, or perhaps I'll refer to it as non-compressed to appease you.

The "analog component" outputs of the Z1, FX1, A1, HC1, and HD100 are analog signals coming directly off of the exact same signal being fed into the compression circuit. The obvious difference is that its the analog data and it is pre-compression.

This same signal can then be fed into a convertor to serialize it into HD-SDI which will give you an Uncompressed HD-SDI output. Will it be identical quality to an internal HD-SDI circuit (ie: XL-H1)? No, of course not, but it will still be a true HD-SDI signal, and unlike Reel-Stream it will match spec. for spec. the HD standards.

Will it have the same color data, etc.. as the Reel-Stream product? No, and I'm not saying that it would. In fact, I even said that the image Obin posted would look better than the HVX image any day of the week because it's a raw uncompressed image compared to the heavily compressed 4:2:2 DVCPRO-HD image.

My whole issue with this debate is that fact that you blatantly mis-quoted me by adding "digital" to my uncompressed comment, and adding the word "digital" would totally change the meaning and is the only way to make my statement inaccurate.

The problem I have with your Reel-Stream information is not with the product itself, I think it's neat and I'd love to see one for the HVX, but your data sheet (website) clearly states that you'll get HD Output from the DVX100 which is misleading. I'll be happy to cover that in detail in an appropriate thread as you requested.
 
Thanks Barry . I guess this thread has taken quite a few tangents. I was on the DCT compression road, hence my earlier mention of DVCPRO.

Steve
 
harlan:
Again, there is no such thing as an Uncompressed Analog signal. it's an oxymoron. You can say the analog signal originated from uncompressed digital data, but by calling it an "uncompressed output" you are piling it with cameras that have SDI and HD-SDI output which are clearly in another category.

We have many beta testers getting uncompressed HD out of their DVX's, shoot me an email at Juan@reel-stream.com and i'll be more than happy to answer everything you ask.

Cheers,
Juan
 
Pertier, I still believe you're still stuck on a misconception that hopefully Barry will jump in again and put to rest.

All cameras of course sample an analog signal (CCD). The signal using a sampling format is than digitized.

In the HVX200 (and other cameras that Harlan mentioned), the signal from there is then routed two ways:

1. To a compression format (DVCPRO, DV) or whatever for saving to P2 or tape (DV) depending on chosen format.

2. Converted to an analog signal not having to go through for instance DVCPRO (a DCT compression format) as Barry mentioned.

If it's the sampling format's reduction to chroma and luma (4:2:2), that's not the tangent I'm on. I don't think Harlan was either?

If it's a naming convention, that's different.

Regards, Steve
 
pertierr said:
harlan:
Again, there is no such thing as an Uncompressed Analog signal. it's an oxymoron. You can say the analog signal originated from uncompressed digital data, but by calling it an "uncompressed output" you are piling it with cameras that have SDI and HD-SDI output which are clearly in another category.
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So a Toyota is not a car because calling it a car would be lumping it into the same category as a BMW or Porsche (which are clearly in another category)? ;) kidding of course.

Anyways... you're basically re-iterating my point in that the analog outputs are uncompressed because an Analog signal cannont be compressed. Calling it "uncompressed" does not pile it into the same category as an SDI or HD-SDI output.


Dictionary definition of Uncompressed:

UNCOMPRESS'ED, a. Not compressed; free from compression.



***edit - why don't my friggin smileys show up? Clearly I'm ignorant!***
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
The music video has a visual style to it, that refelcts the way the DP decided it should look. I find that people are always more critical of other people's work. That is real easy. Making statements that it shouldn't look so video or the depth of field should have been whatever ... well since you were not the DP, that wasn't or isn't your choice, that was Michael's.
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:thumbup: Finally a real enlightenment...I'm getting to think if there is anybody with motion picture pro experience here...I'm sorry guys but I just get hear talk about bits & bytes...And there are a lot of more besides and behind that a device like our HVX just can help us. (Un)fortunately (or maybe not) it doesn't work alone...
 
pertierr said:
I think the moderators are going to give us the uncompressed boot., that's what i think. :)
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LOL!!! Probably.

But 9 times out of 10 people get way to serious on these boards. Nothing wrong with some fun, light-hearted, discussion over semantics. :)


***edit - hey, the smiley worked!! hehehe***
 
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